Thread: Full Length or Neck sizing. What is better and why?

Originally Posted by JLF

None of them. I prefer a partial full recalibration, i.e. using the full recalibration dies I recalibrate 3/4 of the box. The reason is that if I do a full recalibration, I always return the casing to its near normal state and it doesn't take on the actual dimensions of my rifle's chamber. And if I recalibrate the neck, after a few reloads I'll have to do a full recalibration. The above is applicable to cases fired from the same rifle.

What is 'recalibration'?

Short answer is if you have to FLS during the life cycle of the brass you should FLS every time if you are after consistency. Redding competition shell holders are not true to label so will not provide accurate shoulder bump when changed. If you are after accuracy another option will be required.

Best accuracy option is to anneal, reduce neck below required ID preferably with a FLS die (not a bushing) and resize with the appropriate mandrel.

Originally Posted by caberslash

What is 'recalibration'?

'Resizing' when English is your second language.

Originally Posted by Cigar

'Resizing' when English is your second language.

Yes

To answer the original question : neither

For many years my setup was : universal de-prime, Redding body die to bump the shoulder, Lee collet neck die.

The reason for this is that is it the way that works the neck the absolute least - no expander buttons etc. I'm pretty OCD about neck tension... Anneal each firing.

I've never hit the problem 6x47 mentioned above, and I'm talking 5 or six seasons of fullbore. Some chambers do require a small base die, but that is obvious right from the start, it is not a gradual process. At least that is my experience with 308, maybe different cartridges react in another way...

For the last couple of months I have changed over to a Wilson FL bushing die. Single die that does all of the above, and again not expanding the neck.

If it hunting ammo F/L each time. I used to neck size only, and every round was checked through the chamber.

Well eventually I came unstuck when a round chambered, the power of the bolt camming action on closing made sure it fitted, but then when I didn't fire the round it wouldn't "un-chamber". Dangerous and embarrassing!

All hunting ammo now gets F/L here.

Originally Posted by ebf

To answer the original question : neither

For many years my setup was : universal de-prime, Redding body die to bump the shoulder, Lee collet neck die.

The reason for this is that is it the way that works the neck the absolute least - no expander buttons etc. I'm pretty OCD about neck tension... Anneal each firing.

I've never hit the problem 6x47 mentioned above, and I'm talking 5 or six seasons of fullbore. Some chambers do require a small base die, but that is obvious right from the start, it is not a gradual process. At least that is my experience with 308, maybe different cartridges react in another way...

For the last couple of months I have changed over to a Wilson FL bushing die. Single die that does all of the above, and again not expanding the neck.

FL Bushing dies are definitely the way to go.
Remove the expander ball and choose a bushing that gives you the exact neck tension you want, along with a slight shoulder bump means brass that is worked the absolutel minimum but still will chamber perfectly everytime.

Originally Posted by Beetroot

FL Bushing dies are definitely the way to go.
Remove the expander ball and choose a bushing that gives you the exact neck tension you want, along with a slight shoulder bump means brass that is worked the absolutel minimum but still will chamber perfectly everytime.

The downside with bushing dies is that for best results - or even just for acceptable results (depending on your standards) - you need to neck turn brass.

Bushings can also lead to donut formation because they cannot size the base of the neck, meaning that material is able to accumulate.

I have also read that quite a few folk get quite a lot of runout with bushing dies. How much before it actually starts to matter? That probably depends on a lot of things. It's probably also not incurable.

Personally, I have had Redding bushing dies do weird stuff to brass fired from factory (i.e. generously sized) chambers. If they have to neck down the brass more than about 6 thou, the bushing leaves the top of the neck flared and the rest of the neck undersized, resulting in too much neck tension. I contacted Redding about this and it was a known thing:

"If we start to size down more the .006” or so from a fired case that exact thing happens. The chamfer that leads the oversized fired case mouth into the bushing is rather abrupt and steep. This can cause the brass to over shoot the bushing diameter and then come back out to fill it."

The Redding body die and Lee collet die combo suffers none of these issues.

Originally Posted by Pommy

The downside with bushing dies is that for best results - or even just for acceptable results (depending on your standards) - you need to neck turn brass.

Bushings can also lead to donut formation because they cannot size the base of the neck, meaning that material is able to accumulate.

I have also read that quite a few folk get quite a lot of runout with bushing dies. How much before it actually starts to matter? That probably depends on a lot of things. It's probably also not incurable.

Personally, I have had Redding bushing dies do weird stuff to brass fired from factory (i.e. generously sized) chambers. If they have to neck down the brass more than about 6 thou, the bushing leaves the top of the neck flared and the rest of the neck undersized, resulting in too much neck tension. I contacted Redding about this and it was a known thing:

"If we start to size down more the .006” or so from a fired case that exact thing happens. The chamfer that leads the oversized fired case mouth into the bushing is rather abrupt and steep. This can cause the brass to over shoot the bushing diameter and then come back out to fill it."

The Redding body die and Lee collet die combo suffers none of these issues.

Exactly the experience that two of us have had which led me to make custom FLS dies to suit machined necks. If the necks thin out over time and the custom die cannot reduce that last bit needed a custom collet die can be used successfully without the usual ridges being formed because the brass is now only being reduced approx 0.001" over the mandrel.......depending on your accuracy needs bushing dies will work, but not if you want top end performance at long range.....

You have to find what works for you and your rifle(s).

When I started I listened to a lot of experienced shooters/reloaders.

I'm a minimalist reloader, I do a little as possible and as much as necessary.

I have 3 .308 rifles used for target shooting, both FTR & TR.
They are all Barnard actions. Similar but not identical chambers.

I full length size every time with a bushing die because the case could be reused in any of the rifles.

FL sizing doesn't seem to have shortened case life as the first couple of lots of cases I bought have been fired 15+ times.
(I've only just started to anneal & trim these cases.) I don't neck turn or anything else fancy.

None of my bushing dies and that includes Redding, an expensive Whidden, and a almost as expensive Wilson, give satisfactory, to me, runout. In fact they even induce runout which despite using a Redding or Forster sliding sleeve seating dies is not removed at bullet seating. Likewise with Wilson inline seating dies.

My progression thru to over 50 years of reloading - neck sizing only until case wouldn't chamber and then go to mate's who had a FLS die, sizing with bushing dies be they neck or FL (along with neck turning), and now every reload annealing and FL sizing (Forster) with ~ 1 thou neck push back and then expander mandrel (21st Century or Porter). I have very good control over neck tension.
My neck tensions are very consistent along with very low runout and very low SD/ES.

One thing I found with bushings, and I've accumulated a couple of dozen of then is the Redding are not the greatest. I have some that are marked 1 thou difference and an internal mic measures them the same.
I gave up on Redding Titanium bushings ages ago. Far too expensive and I suspect they are heat treated as well and measure in some cases as being oval. I tended to buy Wilson bushings towards the end.

The worst die to induce runout is the Redding body die. The neck being unsupported is free to move where it likes.

Originally Posted by zimmer

The worst die to induce runout is the Redding body die. The neck being unsupported is free to move where it likes.

I have resisted buying a runout gauge and tried to keep my head firmly buried in the sand to pretend that runout doesn't exist (and so long as I continue getting good groups and low SD/ES it'll probably stay buried too). But it would be interesting to see what kind of runout I'm getting on the finished product with the body die and collet die combo (Forster FLS dies are my 1st pick too but for 22-250AI that wasn't an option). Results so far suggest if there's any runout, it's not doing any harm.

Hazarding a guess, the more the body die has to squeeze the case and bump the shoulder, the more potential there is there for the neck to wander. How square the action is and the uniformity of the brass must really start to matter too.

I started reloading (30 years ago) believing NS was the way to go as less work on brass. I quickly moved to FL as all my ammo was hunting ammo and became worried about a jam (rightly or wrongly).

My 280AI likes a FL size followed by the Body Die. This chambers sweet whereas a FL only has firm bolt closure. The Body Dies feels as though it barely touches but it obviously does just enough.

I have competition shellholders and will give these a go - I have to see if the middle safety setting on the Kimber let's the bolt work freely to see if a comp shellholder can do what the body die does and thereby eliminate a step... if that is possible? I didn't think of trying that so thanks for posting the YT link to remind me.

PS - I've also been looking late at case trimming. I realised my 280AI cases had grown significantly and confess I hadn't batched them so there is inconsistency in case length now. Internet says this makes no real difference to accuracy - may be for hunting loads but I'm not so sure about trying to fine turn an accurate load...different neck tension/resistance? I've now trimmed cases so they are all uniform and feel better having done it.

Originally Posted by Cyclops

You have to find what works for you and your rifle(s).

When I started I listened to a lot of experienced shooters/reloaders.

I'm a minimalist reloader, I do a little as possible and as much as necessary.

I have 3 .308 rifles used for target shooting, both FTR & TR.
They are all Barnard actions. Similar but not identical chambers.

I full length size every time with a bushing die because the case could be reused in any of the rifles.

FL sizing doesn't seem to have shortened case life as the first couple of lots of cases I bought have been fired 15+ times.
(I've only just started to anneal & trim these cases.) I don't neck turn or anything else fancy.

Well, I was going to reply with stick with a standard FLS die set of it's just hunting loads.
I've read heaps, tried a few things and can see that you could go down that proverbial rabbit hole in the pursuit of accuracy.

If the OP gets serious about competitive shooting they will have to way up the options and opinions along the way. Different things work for different people.