Thread: Getting ES down with 223

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Kinda contradictory statements.....

I'm a perfectionist also and soon as I switched to Lapua ES dropped to almost single digits.

Ironically, under 350mtrs I didn't notice any real world difference at all to accuracy. YMMV

Can't argue with that. It is a bit contradictory but unfortunately I can't use Lapua for everything.

I have Starline, PPU, and ADI. The weights and consistency of the H2O capacities on all three are similar (I am not mixing them btw). Annealed and fettled, I am surprised they would be responsible for that much deviation.

Before settling on AR2206H with the TMK's, I tried 2208 with the Lapua brass and got pretty average results. Shall try the lighter bullets with it again though.

well I can tell you how to fix it...but you already know the answer...... ,how does it group????pretty good group,very good group,awesome group????
take chronograph..put it directly BEHIND target inline with bullseye...fire 20 shot group...PROBLEM SOLVED

24.5-25grns of 2206 behind your 50 grn projectiles should be good....dropped hammer on 16 of them today and 5 wallabies and a hare are no longer eating grass....any misses were my fault not the loads..3 wallabies were full tit on the run,one was at 200 plus yards at the time....I cant ask more of a load than what these are doing.

Right on cue. I thought you might come along with an extremely helpful comment along those lines Micky

I knew you wanted it...thus your comment in first post LOL
buggered if I know how you fix issue...unless you decide its NOT an issue....

what real world effect will extreme spread off 100 fps do at range you shooting 223 out to???

Greetings Pommy,
You seem to have tried almost everything to get the ES down so perhaps there are two questions. First what was different between the high ES loads and the low ones, and yes it was the cases. The second question was does it matter? You and Micky obviously differ on this question so we are back to the cases. You have ruled out most of the obvious problems but have not mentioned flash holes. I believe Lapua cases have their flash holes drilled but most others are punched leaving a rough edge inside the case. Might be worth uniforming the flash holes using the flashy tool designed for this. Primer pockets as well? Otherwise its back to micky's solution.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I knew you wanted it...thus your comment in first post LOL
buggered if I know how you fix issue...unless you decide its NOT an issue....

what real world effect will extreme spread off 100 fps do at range you shooting 223 out to???

It's the difference between braining a wallaby vs piercing its ear - or a shoulder shot vs a haircut - at 400m.

As to whether anyone can/should be shooting roos at that distance... don't you worry about that little detail

Hmmm - I wonder if the 223 only runs sweet with certain powders. I can't provide any crony data but my heavy 223 I've used for F class and FTR (it'll shoot possibles with about 5X's to at least 600, I have the scores recorded to prove it). This is a good indicator of low ES.

This rifle came from Din Collings estate, with load data in Val's hand (bless them both) and I stuck with that load, 24.5 AR2208 behind Sierra 80's.

Now - the kicker, when powder got short I tried a couple of different ones, a cobber has used W748 in his 223 loads and they give excellent 100Y groups. My 223 would do the same, good groups at 100M with a couple of powders but not worth a damm further out - high ES.

IF you clever about WHERE you aim,you can account for that....MOST 400 yard shots will either be upright roo...or hunched feeding roo....
upright,aim between front legs,2" low still chest/lights n liver with spine in fireing line
hunched over aim just below spine...2" low will be lights n liver and varmit pills work fine here,2" high good solid spine shot....
neck will be ear or shoulder.....

but I do see your point,just dont find it an issue .
if you look in sharp shooter...by Matt n Bruce Grant...arguably THE Bible for people looking to shoot further in hunting situations 30 years ago
one thing Matt said was to wait for deer to start walking uphill away from you...it gave aim from back of head right down to hips for elevation errors in the pre rangefinders,twiddle n fiddle years.....
things have advanced a lot since then but theory still has merit.
as to 400 yard bit......why ever not,roos arent hard to kill and very soft skin and bones other than hips,decent projectiles do lots of damage even when going slower,still no different to 22lr at 25 yards and many many roos have fallen to them.

@Pommy I encountered something similar yesterday while I was testing for my 6mm/223 wildcat.

First OCW test was 87gr Hornady boat tails in PSD mil brass, AR2206H and 205M primers. Accuracy was around MOA and ES was up and down between 20-75. I was starting to wonder about the chrony and whether it was giving me duff data. Then I tried another OCW test, but this time was new Lapua cases, 85gr Sierra SP, 2206H and 205m primers. This time, accuracy steady increased from 33mm down to 9mm as pressure increased, and ES steadily decreased from 50 down to 9 with pressure increase.

The two tests were like night and day really, and I put it down to the brass. Like @grandpamac I too wonder if it’s all about the flasholes. I too have hear that Lapua drill theirs rather than punch, could be something in that.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

@Pommy I encountered something similar yesterday while I was testing for my 6mm/223 wildcat.

First OCW test was 87gr Hornady boat tails in PSD mil brass, AR2206H and 205M primers. Accuracy was around MOA and ES was up and down between 20-75. I was starting to wonder about the chrony and whether it was giving me duff data. Then I tried another OCW test, but this time was new Lapua cases, 85gr Sierra SP, 2206H and 205m primers. This time, accuracy steady increased from 33mm down to 9mm as pressure increased, and ES steadily decreased from 50 down to 9 with pressure increase.

The two tests were like night and day really, and I put it down to the brass. Like @grandpamac I too wonder if it’s all about the flasholes. I too have hear that Lapua drill theirs rather than punch, could be something in that.

Did you try deburring the flash holes on your PSD brass to see if it would also make an improvement? The military brass is often very low grade which I found out when I got my hands on some WCC brass and saw 10gr of case weight variation was pretty standard - enough to be messing with H2O capacities. That's not what I see with Starline. It's not Lapua-tier consistent, but it's not terrible either.

I have a good bit of PMC brass which I use for 308 now and am getting ES's below 20 after fireforming, annealing, trimming, messing with flash holes.

Current plan is to try 10rd groups with the following...
- Virgin Starline, FL sized.
- Fireformed Starline, annealed, sized, trimmed, fettled flash holes.
- Lapua, same treatment.

If you're using average quality brass it can be well worth doing an internal flash hole uniform. any burrs etc in there can open up ES. Its possible to make a considerable difference with this

Expensive brass has uniform flash holes so its not worth doing

Originally Posted by kiwi303

If you're using average quality brass it can be well worth doing an internal flash hole uniform. any burrs etc in there can open up ES. Its possible to make a considerable difference with this

Expensive brass has uniform flash holes so its not worth doing

I will post up the numbers so we can all see how much of a difference it does or doesn't make. But let's not assume I haven't already done it for my testing so far.

I have found the biggest influence on ES is the quality of the brass and neck tension consistency. There is annealing and then there is annealing done properly - big difference.

I use Lapua and Peterson brass (which I've found slightly better) for target shooting. Lapua flash holes are punched not drilled as commonly believed. However, they seem to make a neater job of it than most and the internal dimensions of their brass like Perterson is normally very consistent. Proper case preparation and perfect annealing is a starting point. I haven't found neck turning any advantage on a factory chambered rifle.

My ES on .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor loads which I use for target shooting (and hunting) is usually down below or slightly above 10. Not a huge advantage for me in the field though that I've noticed as I normally can't keep the rifle steady enough to take advantage of it. Helpful for determining the best accuracy a rifle is capable of though.

Consistent neck tension would have to be at the top of the list

But I'b be keen to see what your results are @Pommy with the flash hole stuff.

I haven't played with it much myself but Brian Litz spoke very highly of it in his book and the difference it can make on ES if you are using sub premium brass.

I also didn't know lapua punched their flash holes...