Thread: The Howikka Test Bed

If by "load stats" you mean the velocity consistency as measured by SD - bear in mind that it is totally uncorrellated to close range precision

Originally Posted by Stocky

The Tikka really likes Fiocchi 55 EPN factory.
Attachment 270134

Shame I missed the POA

That's benchrest-losing precision! There's guys out there with custom built benchrest rifles, "tuning loads" and choosing to compete in benchrest, getting those kinda groups

Originally Posted by Tentman

POI is the new scope. It had my 3.5-10 "tester" on pending the arrival of a 3-15. It is a bit weird that the load stats have improved but the group got worse. I did have a bit of an issue with the scope, it was causing "tired eyes " with a loss of clarity (like you get from suppressor mirage) but I don't know what caused it.

The expectations thing is important, the rifle shoots 73s noticeably better but I have 200 77gn TMKs and the are allegedly better on bigger animals. The rifle shoots 55s to less than one click POI difference, so I can interchange rounds on the hill.

That comment on the scope is really interesting - I had a Leupold scope that did something similar to me. I could not adjust the scope or do anything to improve it, did not seem to be anything "wrong" with it but it just did not work with my eyeball. Same issue, created 'tired eyes' - it's quite a good way to describe it actually. Ended up selling it, new owner loved it. I've never experienced it with any other scope I've tried.

Remainder of the thread is an interesting read as well!

https://youtu.be/gzoqDPXnkw4?si=l_f_PZc0036H6ZMJ This guys manner of presentation and load development approach is pretty painful but I have never seen so many components tried in a single rifle (a Tikka 223) in controlled conditions. Not bad groups in the linked video but that's after he's sent at leasr a hundred 10 shot groups of various flavors. Do skip over the first bits to the results board he presents, if you look solely at this over a progression it's very interesting data.

Originally Posted by gimp

If by "load stats" you mean the velocity consistency as measured by SD - bear in mind that it is totally uncorrellated to close range precision

I do realise that but it's also an indicator of process consistency, which has had me buggered for ages.

Originally Posted by Tentman

I do realise that but it's also an indicator of process consistency, which has had me buggered for ages.

I'm not sure it is. I have weighed 223 charges to the grain and gotten terrible SDs and loaded 7mm08 straight of the powder measure to single digit es. It could be but I don't think it's a given and seems chambering design, powder type, etc seem to make more difference.

Originally Posted by gimp

That's benchrest-losing precision! There's guys out there with custom built benchrest rifles, "tuning loads" and choosing to compete in benchrest, getting those kinda groups

I got pretty excited the rifle was going to shoot everything. Made me believe the legendary tikka accuracy claims. Then I shot other 50 grains and 60s and it did only slightly worse. Reloads embarrassingly yield worse results. Shame those cheap fiochi rounds with consistently off centre flash holes don't have a better BC. I never did try TMKs to see if they would match the 55s

Haha, I've long since given up weighting individual powder charges, but I've been focusing on good brass prep and even neck tension (back to using the Lee collect die) and seating primers carefully.

Originally Posted by Tentman

https://youtu.be/gzoqDPXnkw4?si=l_f_PZc0036H6ZMJ This guys manner of presentation and load development approach is pretty painful but I have never seen so many components tried in a single rifle (a Tikka 223) in controlled conditions. Not bad groups in the linked video but that's after he's sent at leasr a hundred 10 shot groups of various flavors. Do skip over the first bits to the results board he presents, if you look solely at this over a progression it's very interesting data.

This guy seems to dug himself deep into the hole of fucking around with this stuff. It looks to me like he's very close to getting an insight - he's talking in mean radius[although using it incorrectly], he's shooting some larger samples - but he just hasn't quite clicked that all his tuned loads are the same and he's just recording the noise.

As far as I can see, all the loads he discards based on 3 or 5 shot group testing of various things are entirely within the range of what you'd expect to get based on the results he gets with final "tuned" loads in the "nodes" he's found.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Haha, I've long since given up weighting individual powder charges, but I've been focusing on good brass prep and even neck tension (back to using the Lee collect die) and seating primers carefully.

I don't think there's anything like as much ability to control "the load" as people would like to believe

For precision testing - on YT or anywhere else - this guy has the best methodology and most interesting data of anyone I've seen yet, although his area of firearms isn't strictly the jam for most NZ hunters

https://youtu.be/GtZfBP9Z8sw?si=etqIL3T0NMwfFs67

Originally Posted by gimp

For precision testing - on YT or anywhere else - this guy has the best methodology and most interesting data of anyone I've seen yet, although his area of firearms isn't strictly the jam for most NZ hunters

https://youtu.be/GtZfBP9Z8sw?si=etqIL3T0NMwfFs67

That's a great video!

Quick range trip to see if I could get a bit more velocity from the 77TMK with the Varget and Staball Match Loads and see if any combination with the 62 ELD VT is worth further investigation. Made a guess based on GRT of how much powder to add to hit the same range as the other TMK loads. Also loaded 62 ELD VTs with 4 powders to just see if it was hated. Interestingly the COAL and the CBTO measurement is identical to the 80 ELD M. My measurements show the 75 ELD M have a sleeker ogive but the 62 ELD VT and 80 ELD M appear to share the same Ogive profile. The 62 just has a much shorter bearing surface that reduces the bullet length.

Here are the 77TMK groups





Once again Vargets the best group but no real conclusions can be made except now I know I can get into the 2650fps-2750fps target velocity range (about where GRT suggests velocity limits due to pressure. I could likely load beyond this but wont) without pressure signs with all the powders tested and that all have the potential to meet the desired 1.5MOA accuracy (more realistically I would like around a 0.1Mil Mean Radius).

Next up some interesting results with the 62 ELD VT. Quite possibly low sample noise. I'd still like to test the terminal performance as the 223 has limits and the slightly lower BC and velocity potential of the 77TMK means there some terminal effective range left on the table. The 62 if its not way too soft and can provide adequate penetration would significantly add to the terminal range.

Here are the 62 ELD VT groups









As you can see there is a wide range of group sizes.

No real conclusions to be made except I can pretty much exclude further testing with XBR and it appears to "like" the 62 ELD VT less than the 77 TMK but possibly more than the 75 ELD M.

I will likely try a larger sample group with a larger load of Varget just to test if I can get a viable load using more of the velocity potential to do some terminal testing on animals.

All photos are ordered in the order of groups shot but the individual shot order in each group is not correct.

You should try ProVarmint if you are looking for a bit more velocity

Originally Posted by mikee

You should try ProVarmint if you are looking for a bit more velocity

I've tried all the appropriate temp stable powders first. Im only looking to maximize what they will give me at this stage.

Im not chasing velocity just the most i can get from the powders I have before pressure (I didnt have good data for Varget and Staball Match yet so loaded same charge as the 77TMKs as I hadnt proven that load safe yet at the upper end of velocity yet.

Velocity is the best pressure sign (no free lunchs) when using GRT I can get a good indicator where pressure limits sit at what velocity with powder bullet combinations. I find up end of pressure burns powder better which is a good thing in a short barrel.

@gimp have an opinion on using the high velocity powder options that are temp sensitive? I think I could manage it but CBF dealing with the problems it can lead to running higher end loads. I dont want a summer and winter load personally.