Thread: The Howikka Test Bed

Very interesting groups Stocky. I'm surprised at how large the 8208 group is. I had a similar result with W748 when I tried it with the Hornardy 73s ( which with other powders shot consistently well) I thought the powder must be off.

I'd love to understand how a powder can make such a difference, for example is not something you see with factory ammo

Personally I don't think temp stable powders are needed for hunting in NZ, with a 223 where the hunting range is under 500M a bit more or less velocity isn't gonna make much difference. And you're not likely to be hunting in very hot weather here anyway, animals are not moving

Ive been working my way thru. A large container of pro varmint in a couple cartridges. Been shooting it over 12months, hot weather and cold. No dramas yet.
I like it better than 8208xbr i was using.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I've tried all the appropriate temp stable powders first. Im only looking to maximize what they will give me at this stage.

Im not chasing velocity just the most i can get from the powders I have before pressure (I didnt have good data for Varget and Staball Match yet so loaded same charge as the 77TMKs as I hadnt proven that load safe yet at the upper end of velocity yet.

Velocity is the best pressure sign (no free lunchs) when using GRT I can get a good indicator where pressure limits sit at what velocity with powder bullet combinations. I find up end of pressure burns powder better which is a good thing in a short barrel.

@gimp have an opinion on using the high velocity powder options that are temp sensitive? I think I could manage it but CBF dealing with the problems it can lead to running higher end loads. I dont want a summer and winter load personally.

While we are on this "velocity" subject I was pondering the other day why I can get about 1470 fpe of energy with a 69 gn but struggle to get the same energy output with 77s, is there a way of understanding this?

Originally Posted by Tentman

While we are on this "velocity" subject I was pondering the other day why I can get about 1470 fpe of energy with a 69 gn but struggle to get the same energy output with 77s, is there a way of understanding this?

What range?

My ballistic table for 77tmk:

Range Velocity Energy
0 2900 1438.0

My 69 Targex:

Range Velocity Energy
0 3000 1379.0

At the muzzle, I get wee bit more than 3000 with 69s. It's only semantics, nothing real world!

@Stocky
I reckon there is something mechanically wrong with your rifle for it to shoot such poor groups with those quality projectiles. Its got to ne either suppressor (if one is in use, muzzle (crown or bore), bedding or something in the scope system.
No modern rifle should shoot that bad.
Is it actually 1in8" twist?

Originally Posted by Roarless20

@Stocky
I reckon there is something mechanically wrong with your rifle for it to shoot such poor groups with those quality projectiles. Its got to ne either suppressor (if one is in use, muzzle (crown or bore), bedding or something in the scope system.
No modern rifle should shoot that bad.
Is it actually 1in8" twist?

Have you read the whole thread? I doubt it other than being a factory rifle barrel from a budget rifle company. I think most people's rifles don't shoot as good as they think they do. IE it's unccomon at the handloaders do I see actual targets with sub moa groups with more than 3 rounds and its far more common to see 2-3inch 5 shot groups and people claiming fliers. It would shock me that TMKs are capable of quite possibly submoa performance if it was that seriously wrong. It just doesn't like the combination. All the bullets it hasn't liked are ELD ms with likely the exact same ogive profile. I may mess with it some more at some stage and recut the crown (looks fine) and may run a bore scope down it but I've seen some horrendous bores shoot fine. It's 8 twist 80 elds enter straight so there's no way it's that borderline on the 62s. Plus the 88 tmks are longer than the 62s

Yes I've read the whole thread.
When you find the actual issue you'll realise what I'm saying.
The main bore condition isnt too much of a concern but the last 1" of bore is very important along with the crown. Personally i would double check the muzzle end and crown with your bore scope before you waste too many more components. Try another scope (the ok tmk groups say its possibly not this) and recheck your action screws etc. Remove any suppressor.
I've problem solved a few different rifles now and they all shot like yours or better even with their problems. They shot alot better after. 2"-3" groups indicates problems.
Put your emotions aside and think practically. I bet you'll find something.

For reference, these are groups from a .223 T3 with ammunition it doesn't like. It will shoot much better with a load it does like.

Are the nice 7mm pins on your bases bottoming out allow one to move? Or the base screw over the barrel tenon (cant remember if howa has one there) bottoming.
Is the box of the jefferson bottom metal pinching or holding the action of the stock fractionally?

@gimp yep all good and well but Stocky shouldnt have that many poor performing projectiles.
If that is the case he needs a new barrel to do better. But some careful investigation of 1hr might find an issue first.

Originally Posted by Roarless20

Yes I've read the whole thread.
When you find the actual issue you'll realise what I'm saying.
The main bore condition isnt too much of a concern but the last 1" of bore is very important along with the crown. Personally i would double check the muzzle end and crown with your bore scope before you waste too many more components. Try another scope (the ok tmk groups say its possibly not this) and recheck your action screws etc. Remove any suppressor.
I've problem solved a few different rifles now and they all shot like yours or better even with their problems. They shot alot better after. 2"-3" groups indicates problems.
Put your emotions aside and think practically. I bet you'll find something.

There's no emotion. I just don't think it matters that much, that's far more practical than pretending I need 1 inch groups to kill deer or shoot steel. Those that think they need sub moa rifles are delusional and often so are those that think they have them. Hornady have openly said it's exceptionally rare for there cut rifled match barrels in fixtures to be truly submoa.

I want to test for changes. So i need a generic baseline. I'm not wasting components I'm investigating. How do I know I fixed something if I didn't prove what the issue was. Could you please provide some large shot size groups showing your precision?

I don't see it as component wast I see it as trigger time, investigating what if anything makes large differences to rifle precision.

Originally Posted by Roarless20

@gimp yep all good and well but Stocky shouldnt have that many poor performing projectiles.
If that is the case he needs a new barrel to do better. But some careful investigation of 1hr might find an issue first.

I've tried 3 projectiles? 2 of those the same style. I never said I need to do better. Eventually I'm going to have had a number of barrels on their rifle. No the pins have clearance. I've checked the functional issues like binding mags etc. It may just be a poor barrel. That's fine. I have 2 more here already for the next stage of testing but I felt factory barrel data is most relevant to start with.

Your claiming to know it can't possibly shoot that bad but the idea is to prove that rather than just guess.

I have a preference to stick to extruded ADI powders - I use 2206H, 2208 and 2209 for everything and have for pretty much my entire reloading life. This is due to availability, cost, and a general feel that they provide good results - I haven't had problems with temp sensitivity because I haven't used temp sensitive powders - I'd rather just avoid the problem.



Your 75gr ELDs have a better average 5-shot group size than the 62s... but there's not really enough info to call anything