Thread: Improving 45-70 ammo with a mandrel

After seeing this mandrel for sale on the K&M site it bugged me till i scratched the itch and bought one. Luckily it works flawlessly and ive had no munted cases so far.
For those not following, the 45-70 has one main drawback. You need to bellmouth the cases normally as most 45-70 dies do this with the 'expander die'. Using the hornady set of dies and the mandrel im hoping to see some improvements on paper.

https://kmshooting.com/product/expand-mandrels/

not sure what problem your fixing . . the mandrel die you show seems to be for preparing a case for neck turning the .45/70
i found very little info about them, just a quick look tho, have you had problems ?

what bullets / rifle are you reloading for ?

I got the chance to fire a couple of shots out of one recently =Fun

Originally Posted by rossi.45

https://kmshooting.com/product/expand-mandrels/

not sure what problem your fixing . . the mandrel die you show seems to be for preparing a case for neck turning the .45/70
i found very little info about them, just a quick look tho, have you had problems ?

what bullets / rifle are you reloading for ?

The problem is the overworking on the necks in and out, then crimping. I wanted to try just seating in the same way target rounds are seated in bottle neck cases.

Another problem with the crimping seems to be the inconsistent neck tension. I pulled apart a set of rounds made using the traditional method and found some coming apart with moderate force and some took quite a few strikes with the kinetic puller. (Ive got a cam puller but i dont like the marks it can leave)

there are people using black powder in the mighty .45/70 who do not use dies at all...you can get enough tension to hold projectiles in place just pushing them in....of all the cartridges Ive used over the years and the many Ive loaded for,the .45/70 would rate as the most simple and easy to do. when std dies open the case up the right amount,and the flareing die bells mouth a wee bit if you desire it,I fail to see what another flashasmichaeljackson mandrel die will achieve that you cannot already do without having another set of dies cluttering up the bench/making the simple process longer and more complicated than needed.
it is after all just another male fitting to expand the case.....

consistancy with crimping can only be effected by three things....the amount crimping die is set to...the thickness of brass....the brass itself....
if all the brass is the same,the tension should be the same....she is a big hunk of lead tundling along nicely,pin point accuracy isnt a requirement for the purpose the cartridge is best for....pokeing big holes in animals chest/shoulders area at close range.

Originally Posted by T.FOYE

The problem is the overworking on the necks in and out, then crimping. I wanted to try just seating in the same way target rounds are seated in bottle neck cases.

Another problem with the crimping seems to be the inconsistent neck tension. I pulled apart a set of rounds made using the traditional method and found some coming apart with moderate force and some took quite a few strikes with the kinetic puller. (Ive got a cam puller but i dont like the marks it can leave)

with a good relationship between bullet dia, expander and case i dont see a problem that needs another die . . but then i cast boolits, have a selection of sizing dies, expanders and use a leveraction with ammo designed for hunting, all cases are annealed after each firing

when you have results of any improvement in performance i hope to see them here . . good luck

I asked Bergara for their max pressure on the BA13 and they sent me this data sheet. Im guessing they want me to stop at 2200 bar?? Guess PE is 'projectile energy'??


My main load on GRT is below which i reduced after looking at this. According to this calc im only going to lose 20fts if i cut 3/4 of a grain off my worked up load.

Re the next tension

You are assuming the tension you experienced pulling the bullets is the same tension when the bullet is being released up the barrel

I wouldn't assume that because the pressure pushing the bullet forward is also expanding the case neck as it releases the bullet

I reloaded some 45-70 yesterday as well

Mine will kill like a laser and be much faster because they are go fast red

But I just realised they are camouflaged as meat !

I know it seems like im spitting hairs but i struggled to find anyone online who was managing to make consistantly small groups (less than 1MOA) with this cal. I reckon it can be done but not easily. The recoil is by far the hardest factor that ive experienced.

Im not using a Lee factory crimp die which i know would do a better crimp. Not ruling it out but i'll cross that bridge when get im convinced that i have to crimp
What i struggled with was that the canelure depression on the most bullets is set too far fwd, forcing you to seat too far back if you want to crimp properly.

Im .01" off the lands at the moment which is getting good results with jacketed 300gn HP.
Taper crimping on the regular bearing surface either didnt do much, or all or a sudden it munted the bullet.

Has anyone actually measured bullet creep in a tube mag?(such as a Marlin SBL). Im seeing a lot saying that its a legit thing but some are saying they dont crimp and have never experienced it.

I believe you are over thinking it....and recoil....means you are pushing things hard...45grns of 2208 is good load behind 400grn cast....its stout but not rattle your teeth hot.... there used to be 3 tiers of loads in manuals...thats changed to just two now.... if you take out the hot hot loads for the likes of a ruger #1 or a custom bolt gun...you still have good loads...if you take out the loads ok for modern levers...you left with loads for older and less robust rifles...I decided to load above the bottom and about half way up the 2nd tier...and it works well for me. you dont need super hot loads,its a huge heavy hunk of lead and just keeps trundling along.
try some milder loads and see what you think...they could be more accurate if you not gritting teeth before pulling lanyard.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I believe you are over thinking it....and recoil....means you are pushing things hard...45grns of 2208 is good load behind 400grn cast....its stout but not rattle your teeth hot.... there used to be 3 tiers of loads in manuals...thats changed to just two now.... if you take out the hot hot loads for the likes of a ruger #1 or a custom bolt gun...you still have good loads...if you take out the loads ok for modern levers...you left with loads for older and less robust rifles...I decided to load above the bottom and about half way up the 2nd tier...and it works well for me. you dont need super hot loads,its a huge heavy hunk of lead and just keeps trundling along.
try some milder loads and see what you think...they could be more accurate if you not gritting teeth before pulling lanyard.

@Micky Duck do you get a good clean burn with that load of 2208