Thread: Keeping it Simple for New Handloaders

I'm also happy to help out new/inexperienced reloaders in the Southland/Otago area. I'm based near Gore. As long as you have components and a set of dies I can supply the rest for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Ingrid 51

I have certainly been guilty of overthinking reloading for my 6.5x55’s, both the older SE variants and a new Tikka. Simple but careful is best I believe; no need to chase some godforsaken light speed.

Never a truer word spoken!

As a rookie reloader, I started pistol reloading during lock down and rifle a month after, this forum helped immensely. I was lucky enough to have been given some gear to get me started but also needed a bit more as we all do. A few on the page had reached out to me via PM ( probably after I asked a rookie question) and I’m super grateful for that and some even provided me with more of the basics. But you are right in keeping it simple, I was overwhelmed by the information out there but your simple list is a great example of the basics you need to get started. Simply put, I’m still learning and don’t think I’ll ever master it, but am managing to get bullets to hit paper and have even knocked over a few deer too.

Originally Posted by G.I_Joel

As a rookie reloader, I started pistol reloading during lock down and rifle a month after, this forum helped immensely. I was lucky enough to have been given some gear to get me started but also needed a bit more as we all do. A few on the page had reached out to me via PM ( probably after I asked a rookie question) and I’m super grateful for that and some even provided me with more of the basics. But you are right in keeping it simple, I was overwhelmed by the information out there but your simple list is a great example of the basics you need to get started. Simply put, I’m still learning and don’t think I’ll ever master it, but am managing to get bullets to hit paper and have even knocked over a few deer too.

Greetings G.I_Joel,
Thanks for your kind words. I think that handloading is not something that you ever completely master, although you may fool yourself that you have for a time. I certainly fall into both of the above categories. The good thing with continuous learning is that you are seldom bored.
I noted that several have offered their services as a mentor and am happy to do that for those in the Hawkes Bay area. Just PM me if you have a need.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Tussock

...just learn to set the projectile up just off the lands...

Personally don't agree with this methodology.

Started out reading that this was the way (chase the lands, seat X thou off etc.), didn't have terrible accuracy but not that awesome either.

Learned about bullet designs and Tangent/Secant/Hybrid ogives.

Researched the original cartridge specs.

Then started to load 'jump friendly' bullets to factory length, and magic happens. This was most pronounced on the .308.

Does not help when there are no clear definitions on target vs. hunting loads, seen guys trying to replicate some sort of F-class load on their hunting rig.

If your rifle is wearing a factory barrel then neck-turning/reaming won't do anything and seating to the lands is probably going to make the rifle a single shot due to mag length restrictions.

If I were to start someone off I would say find a factory load that shoots good, then replicate that 1:1 or as close as possible, then progress from there.

Reloading is either about saving money or working up a super-tuned load, trying to do both at the same time usually doesn't work!

Originally Posted by caberslash

Personally don't agree with this methodology.

Started out reading that this was the way (chase the lands, seat X thou off etc.), didn't have terrible accuracy but not that awesome either.

Learned about bullet designs and Tangent/Secant/Hybrid ogives.

Researched the original cartridge specs.

Then started to load 'jump friendly' bullets to factory length, and magic happens. This was most pronounced on the .308.

Does not help when there are no clear definitions on target vs. hunting loads, seen guys trying to replicate some sort of F-class load on their hunting rig.

If your rifle is wearing a factory barrel then neck-turning/reaming won't do anything and seating to the lands is probably going to make the rifle a single shot due to mag length restrictions.

If I were to start someone off I would say find a factory load that shoots good, then replicate that 1:1 or as close as possible, then progress from there.

Reloading is either about saving money or working up a super-tuned load, trying to do both at the same time usually doesn't work!

Greetings Caberslash,
Have had very good results with projectiles seated well short of the lands, usually due to long throat and short magazine. If you can't feed the rounds from the mag then what is the point of having a repeater. I generally seat the projectiles 1 mm from the lands where the mag and seating depth allow but otherwise to suit the latter. The things that I find helps to get the best accuracy where the projectiles have some distance to go is to avoid boat tail projectiles and use the heavier projectiles, say 165 grains in the .308 W. A recent test series I shot in my .308 (long throated) with 125, 150 and 165 grain FB projectiles showed an increase in accuracy as the weight increased. All were reasonable for accuracy but the 150 grain boat tails I tried years ago were average at best.
Regards Grandpamac.

so this fancy seating off lands thing........IF you rifle likes a particular factory load...and you using similar projectile...set up your seating die USING the factory load... and go from there...if the roundy bit behind the pointy bit is similar......because the seating die contacts the roundy bit part way down....well it stands to reason your projectile should contact rifling at similar amount of jump from case.... sometimes its way overthought and for bush ranges it wont matter a shit.... sub inch is lovely if you shooting out 400 or more but under 350 an inch or 2" at a pinch will still get your deer IF you dont try fancy stuff and aim centre shoulder.....

For my hunting rifle i just make sure i know where my cold shot goes. My target rifle ammo is another matter....
But yeah for my 45-70 i use a loaded round to set my seater die. I just do a before and after check with the calipers to make sure i didnt nudge it at all

Originally Posted by caberslash

Personally don't agree with this methodology.

Started out reading that this was the way (chase the lands, seat X thou off etc.), didn't have terrible accuracy but not that awesome either.

Learned about bullet designs and Tangent/Secant/Hybrid ogives.

Researched the original cartridge specs.

Then started to load 'jump friendly' bullets to factory length, and magic happens. This was most pronounced on the .308.

Does not help when there are no clear definitions on target vs. hunting loads, seen guys trying to replicate some sort of F-class load on their hunting rig.

If your rifle is wearing a factory barrel then neck-turning/reaming won't do anything and seating to the lands is probably going to make the rifle a single shot due to mag length restrictions.

If I were to start someone off I would say find a factory load that shoots good, then replicate that 1:1 or as close as possible, then progress from there.

Reloading is either about saving money or working up a super-tuned load, trying to do both at the same time usually doesn't work!

I should have said "don't worry about the lands". It would have made more sense.

As you note, most of the time there is a big jump just to fit in the magazine.

What I really meant is chose a distance from the lands and work on powder charge and don't bother worrying about it. As apposed to finding a powder charge for velocity and then adjusting the seating depth for accuracy.

Seeing as we are disagreeing with things, I don't agree with duplicating factory loads.

Unless you are using a high BC projectile, getting it to group better than 2" at 100m is a waste of time anyway.

Nothing more pointless than wind sensitive flat bases that shoot tight groups at 100m if that's not their sole purpose.

You won't need those tight groups until miles past the useful range of an ordinary projectile.

Duplicated a 55gr V-max load in a 22-250. Got it shooting better then the factory half inch loads. Took forever. Had to change powders and brass. Then realised a 12lb varmint rifle was useless at long range shooting a low BC projectile. It was nothing more than a mediocre 100m target rifle.

Still fun though.

A VLD shooting 1.5" would be more useful at range than a corloct shooting 0.5"

Tight groups at 100m is precision, not accuracy.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Caberslash,
Have had very good results with projectiles seated well short of the lands, usually due to long throat and short magazine. If you can't feed the rounds from the mag then what is the point of having a repeater. I generally seat the projectiles 1 mm from the lands where the mag and seating depth allow but otherwise to suit the latter. The things that I find helps to get the best accuracy where the projectiles have some distance to go is to avoid boat tail projectiles and use the heavier projectiles, say 165 grains in the .308 W. A recent test series I shot in my .308 (long throated) with 125, 150 and 165 grain FB projectiles showed an increase in accuracy as the weight increased. All were reasonable for accuracy but the 150 grain boat tails I tried years ago were average at best.
Regards Grandpamac.

Hey there @grandpamac , cheers for the reply.

Funny you mention that. I thought my .308 Tikka CTR was a 'dud' as the 150 grain BT projectiles just shot OK, around an inch and nothing spectacular. If anything the accuracy seemed to improve the hotter the barrel got but I never tested this to an extreme (mirage concerns and not being silly). Did a little reading on the matter and discovered the CTR actually has a 1:11 twist rate (same spec the USMC and Army have for shooting 168 and 175 MatchKings) so I tried the 175 SMK loaded to 'M118LR' spec (i.e 2.8" COAL, match primer and a 40+ grain load of stick powder).

Then it was like a laser beam, only sold it as I think .308 shooting that sort of bullet weight is a little bit over-gunned for the UK.

Another example would be loading Barnes 110 TTSX in the .270, great accuracy from the jump-friendly bullet and at 3,000+fps the stout wee bullet hits hard with comparatively little recoil.

Just got into flat base bullets for the .223 Vixen I have (originally a .222 that some idiot had reamed short of headspace, but thankfully fixed now!), and for the magazine length I would not consider boat-tails anyway.

Did some research on the chambering and the approximate 1:12-1:14 twist was optimal for the .22 cal bullets available at the time with thin jackets and accuracy was excellent (as you know this chambering held the world benchrest record for decades until the PPC was king).

Quite like the flat base as they make perfect sense in a rifle that won't be going past 300m, they need slightly more chamfer on the case neck for seating when compared to a boat-tail but determining seating depth is a breeze (as it should be!).

Originally Posted by Tussock

I should have said "don't worry about the lands". It would have made more sense.

As you note, most of the time there is a big jump just to fit in the magazine.

What I really meant is chose a distance from the lands and work on powder charge and don't bother worrying about it. As apposed to finding a powder charge for velocity and then adjusting the seating depth for accuracy.

Seeing as we are disagreeing with things, I don't agree with duplicating factory loads.

Unless you are using a high BC projectile, getting it to group better than 2" at 100m is a waste of time anyway.

Nothing more pointless than wind sensitive flat bases that shoot tight groups at 100m if that's not their sole purpose.

You won't need those tight groups until miles past the useful range of an ordinary projectile.

Duplicated a 55gr V-max load in a 22-250. Got it shooting better then the factory half inch loads. Took forever. Had to change powders and brass. Then realised a 12lb varmint rifle was useless at long range shooting a low BC projectile. It was nothing more than a mediocre 100m target rifle.

Still fun though.

A VLD shooting 1.5" would be more useful at range than a corloct shooting 0.5"

Tight groups at 100m is precision, not accuracy.

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Always better to have some disagreements or else this forum would just be another echo chamber!

I would not give up on your 12lb 22-250 Varmint rifle just yet, what do you consider to be 'long range'?

Wind drift may be a big concern, but so long as you can dial for drop or even wind on your scope then it might still be good?

That being said, I would not want to be dialling when trying to lamp a fox so point and shoot is key. 22-250 and 25-06 were varmint rounds of choice for a reason!

Another rambling thought, there is a strong rumour that Lee Precision is going to stop making Lee Classic Loaders soon. Although they are not able to FL size I think they are still a very handy tool to have in the box (de-prime, size, reprime, charge, seat and shoot!).

I've never worried about where the lands are. I just use mag length as a starting point and if it doesn't shoot then it doesn't shoot. Can get most projectiles to shoot at some kind of acceptable level of accuracy using this method and only worrying about powder charge. The only time I've had loads that just plain won't shoot is when the projectiles is completely wrong for the twist rate. With hunting rifles it makes me laugh a bit when guys get a good load going and then start playing with seating depths and tell themselves that a . 1" improvement in group size is because of the change in seating depth, I guarantee your ability to shoot the rifle has more of an affect on group size, choose a "good" load and load up a dozen or so projectiles all at the same seating depth and go shoot groups with a hunting rifle, your group sizes will vary the same or more than the variations "found" in your seating depth tests because unless you're an excellent marksman and the rifle is a bench rifle you're never going to get enough consistency to actually believe those variations are directly accredited to seating depth. Some fellas seem to like making things hard on themselves

never were truer words said.....

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

I've never worried about where the lands are. I just use mag length as a starting point and if it doesn't shoot then it doesn't shoot. Can get most projectiles to shoot at some kind of acceptable level of accuracy using this method and only worrying about powder charge. The only time I've had loads that just plain won't shoot is when the projectiles is completely wrong for the twist rate. With hunting rifles it makes me laugh a bit when guys get a good load going and then start playing with seating depths and tell themselves that a . 1" improvement in group size is because of the change in seating depth, I guarantee your ability to shoot the rifle has more of an affect on group size, choose a "good" load and load up a dozen or so projectiles all at the same seating depth and go shoot groups with a hunting rifle, your group sizes will vary the same or more than the variations "found" in your seating depth tests because unless you're an excellent marksman and the rifle is a bench rifle you're never going to get enough consistency to actually believe those variations are directly accredited to seating depth. Some fellas seem to like making things hard on themselves

You make some valid points, and yeah .1" very likely is variation in shooter rather than load/seating depth variation.
Still fun to play with and good to know that seating depth can make a difference depending on the projectile.
I will play devils advocate for a second.....if I loaded to mag length in my fierce rem mag I would be jamming my projectiles into the lands by a considerable amount so not one rule for all by any means.
Definitely agree that loading to sammi spec you should be able to find an accurate load in most hunting rifles if you stick to bullet weights that will stabalise with your twist rate.
I like to play and I like to understand what I'm doing so don't mind fiddling to see what/if any difference is made and how to interpret what my rifle is doing.
It's not for everyone and yes I do get over complicated but it's only out of interest, I know I can load accurate hunting rounds without all the fuss.

your last line sums it up nicely.......hunting rounds......is the key point LOL.

Originally Posted by dannyb

You make some valid points, and yeah .1" very likely is variation in shooter rather than load/seating depth variation.
Still fun to play with and good to know that seating depth can make a difference depending on the projectile.
I will play devils advocate for a second.....if I loaded to mag length in my fierce rem mag I would be jamming my projectiles into the lands by a considerable amount so not one rule for all by any means.
Definitely agree that loading to sammi spec you should be able to find an accurate load in most hunting rifles if you stick to bullet weights that will stabalise with your twist rate.
I like to play and I like to understand what I'm doing so don't mind fiddling to see what/if any difference is made and how to interpret what my rifle is doing.
It's not for everyone and yes I do get over complicated but it's only out of interest, I know I can load accurate hunting rounds without all the fuss.

Yea but you're feeding yourself bullshit basically... There's definately a sweet spot where you're gonna see good performance but it's exactly that, a sweet spot, and it's larger than your ability to shoot is able to measure. I challenge you to load up several different seating depths, load 6 of each, and then go and shoot two 3 shot groups with each of them, I guarantee that there will be variation between your two groups of the same seating depth, in some cases this variation will be greater than the variation between loads of different depths. Consistency is the key here. I have a load that can shoot under 1/4 inch, it will be more than enough for all the hunting that I ever want to do, out to further than I will ever shoot an animal, but will it shoot that every single time? Nope. Why? Because there's a big floppy piece of meat and bone with a heartbeat hanging onto the trigger which will make more of a difference in consistency than anything else.