Thread: Load Testing Analysis. What do i make of this?

Originally Posted by shooternz

Why did you not start with the projectile seated to manufacturers specs? They spend millions and hours working with highly sophisticated equipment
and some first time loader thinks they know better, I have been hand loading since 1969 and still start with manufacturers seating depth when trying
a new projectile, Always start with getting the powder charge sorted out first, Your loads are stringing vertical which is usually a sign of bad ignition
horizontal stringing is a bad hold, Seat the projectiles to Nosler's specs start with their start load shoot three shot groups in .5 grain steps until you find
the most accurate powder charge forget about velocity until you have the rifle grouping a 2960fps hit is better than a 3100fps miss.

That is a good point. I was under the impression that seating closer to the lands was better seen as the factory loads are set to encompass all make and models. Cheers

Originally Posted by 7RMBoy

I have measured the max jam length for the accubonds, that length was 3.366” so I seated the bullets at 3.350”. .2gr jumps in powder is how you’d go from here? I’ll give that a go. Cheers!

In my 270 the jam point is .285" further out than factory ammo seating depth.
I gained nothing in accuracy by seating 140 AB's .015 - .020 off the lands and think like other posters have written that I should go to factory length as a start point.
From what I have read the bonded bullets are better with a .050 jump and the non bonded bullets .010 ish. Makes it confusing.
I have found AB's to be great bullets, always a pass through with a big glob of blood on the ground. The animals will often run a few metres with blood pouring out but I have never lost one. The AB's open fast and the wound looks like it's been cut with a hole saw.
There is a bloke on the forum @Pongo who probably shoots more deer than anyone here and he uses the 168 Berger in a 7mm Saum or WSM near and far.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

In my 270 the jam point is .285" further out than factory ammo seating depth.
I gained nothing in accuracy by seating 140 AB's .015 - .020 off the lands and think like other posters have written that I should go to factory length as a start point.
From what I have read the bonded bullets are better with a .050 jump and the non bonded bullets .010 ish. Makes it confusing.
I have found AB's to be great bullets, always a pass through with a big glob of blood on the ground. The animals will often run a few metres with blood pouring out but I have never lost one. The AB's open fast and the wound looks like it's been cut with a hole saw.
There is a bloke on the forum @Pongo who probably shoots more deer than anyone here and he uses the 168 Berger in a 7mm Saum or WSM near and far.

Have just bought a set of comparators so i’ll be able to compare the distance off the lands between my loads and the factory ammunition

Powder weight seems to be one of the less important factors in accuracy.
People do chase the fabled "nodes" and "most accurate powder charge" but in my limited experience point of impact and group size don't change much with powder weight. So what you're seeing is very common.

It's a good idea to buy a box of factory ammo with components similar to what you'll reload and shoot a 5 shot group of it each reload testing session as a control. Generally, reloads will at least match factory ammo and if they don't you will have a problem with your equipment or process which you can fix.

Two key factors are cartridge headspace and concentricity.

7RM was designed to headspace off the belt but in practice it has to be off the shoulder so get a shoulder insert for your comparator and see how much you're sizing them down each time. Adjust the die til its around 0.003". 7RM loaders can confirm if that's right for that cartridge. My smaller cartridges are 0.003" and 0.001" shorter after full length sizing, which is all I do.

Concentricity is said to be the most important thing. Perhaps your sizing or seating die isn't sitting straight in the press. Or the die you have is a dud. Use lube on the inside neck or expander ball. Others may be able to suggest how to investigate or correct this.

Trimming brass to length, squaring the mouth and a gentle chamfer may also help bullet seating.

Start by expecting to shoot deer at 300m. 500m is too far, even with a magnum. Until you've done a lot of target shooting with it.

Your brass is probably not Nosler in which case their reloading specs will not apply. At the very least, as others have recommended, drop back 10% to 57 grains and do a ladder at 0.3 grain steps up to 61 or so. This will give a better picture to assess. Use magnum primers too.

ok fair enough.....maybe TRY what I suggested.....place one of the ornx in base and put seating die in,screw stem out a fair ol way....drop ram handle to bottom and start screwing stem down watching it like a hawk...when it starts to "quiver like your old fella when pretty girl walks by"....stop screwing it down.... then try one of your reloads in dies set up as it is......it will either be shorter,longer or bang on....any which way it gives you somewhere to start...Ive loaded this way for 30 years.

Greetings Again 7RMBoy,
The Nosler data is the hottest I have seen listed currently so would suggest not going above 63 grains. The data is the same as was listed in Nosler's No 1 manual from 1976 with slight changes in velocity. I suspect the loads crowd the 52,000 CUP or 60,000 PSI limit pretty hard. IMR4831 was introduced in the early 1970's, about the time that load data started to be pressure tested. All new handloaders start out infected with a degree of velocititis (a burning desire to achieve the maximum velocity possible at any cost) but most recover over time. 62.5 grains of IMR4831 interpolates to 2,990 fps. If you can chronograph that load it will give you an idea of pressure. If the velocity is close then pressure will be too.
If you are concerned over getting that last erosive foot per second I suggest a little exercise. Construct a couple of drop charts, each with the Accubond zeroed at 200 metres, but with one for 2,800 fps and the other 3,000 fps. this will show the difference between a hot load and one less so.
I also would not read too much into the accuracy of a single group for a load. You could shoot your set of loads again and get quite different results. That's just the way loads are. To me the 62.5 grain load looks promising so I would retest that one with a couple more groups before I change it much. A couple of clicks left on the scope and a few loads and you are ready for hunting. Further development can continue between hunts.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Again 7RMBoy,
The Nosler data is the hottest I have seen listed currently so would suggest not going above 63 grains. The data is the same as was listed in Nosler's No 1 manual from 1976 with slight changes in velocity. I suspect the loads crowd the 52,000 CUP or 60,000 PSI limit pretty hard. IMR4831 was introduced in the early 1970's, about the time that load data started to be pressure tested. All new handloaders start out infected with a degree of velocititis (a burning desire to achieve the maximum velocity possible at any cost) but most recover over time. 62.5 grains of IMR4831 interpolates to 2,990 fps. If you can chronograph that load it will give you an idea of pressure. If the velocity is close then pressure will be too.
If you are concerned over getting that last erosive foot per second I suggest a little exercise. Construct a couple of drop charts, each with the Accubond zeroed at 200 metres, but with one for 2,800 fps and the other 3,000 fps. this will show the difference between a hot load and one less so.
I also would not read too much into the accuracy of a single group for a load. You could shoot your set of loads again and get quite different results. That's just the way loads are. To me the 62.5 grain load looks promising so I would retest that one with a couple more groups before I change it much. A couple of clicks left on the scope and a few loads and you are ready for hunting. Further development can continue between hunts.
Regards Grandpamac.

Hey Granpamac,

Just whipped up a ballistics chart and noted that the difference isn’t that major really. There is a 6inch drop difference at 500m and roughly a 200fps and 200ftlb difference between the 2800fps and 3000fps.
To be fair the velocity doesn’t really bother me aslong as the bullets group well and will preform at distances out to the 5-600m mark. Which both of those examples would.
Thanks for the reply

Have you got a reloading manual and given it a good thorough read?

Not trying to be overly critical, but your approach seems quite cavalier and it looks like you've made a few too many assumptions along the way with your reloading.

Might just want to slow down a bit and get someone to sanity check what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Pommy

Have you got a reloading manual and given it a good thorough read?

Not trying to be overly critical, but your approach seems quite cavalier and it looks like you've made a few too many assumptions along the way with your reloading.

Might just want to slow down a bit and get someone to sanity check what you're doing.

Hey Pommy,

I don’t own a manual yet, have been getting information off of the bullet manufacturers websites and the likes. I think you’re probably right with that assumption. I do have a couple people i can talk to and get them to verify my methods.

Cheers

There is nothing wrong with using reloading manuals from the manufacturers website. Far more likely to be current than some hardcopies you find laying about.

2 quick questions.

You mentioned the IMR you have has been around since your Dad was reloading. How long ago was that and how was it stored?

And, how good a shot are you? No disrespect intended but I have seen people shoot with my rifle/reloads, that are genuine .5 combos, and only just get their group on an A4 page at 100m. Basically, are you good enough to be able to tell if it's the ammo or you?

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

There is nothing wrong with using reloading manuals from the manufacturers website. Far more likely to be current than some hardcopies you find laying about.

2 quick questions.

You mentioned the IMR you have has been around since your Dad was reloading. How long ago was that and how was it stored?

And, how good a shot are you? No disrespect intended but I have seen people shoot with my rifle/reloads, that are genuine .5 combos, and only just get their group on an A4 page at 100m. Basically, are you good enough to be able to tell if it's the ammo or you?

Hey,

I cannot say for certain how many years it has been sitting for, but it was in screw lid plastic containers and still smells fine according to dad. That is one thing i am weary of though as i’m sure you are implying that it could potentially have gone off or not be as reliable as it once was.
I am by no means a professional shooter, but the shots I took were off a very steady sandbag rest and felt good. I did notice i was flinching slighly at times but stopped to settle a bit before shooting. Definitely not going to be missing the paper at 100m though ,

I'm impressed by your ability to accept all inputs without adverse reaction. Well done & hang in there.
The AB is a great pill for close up ranges (0- 300 or 350 yrd) and larger game, but at 5 - 600 yards you'll find its probably too tough, being a bonded projectile) & may pencil thru an animal with out doing much internal damage (unless you strike bone). Animal in this case may escape a long way before succumbing. Effect may be more exaggerated on smaller/lighter game. For longer range you'd be better of with more frangible pill like the old 162gn AMAX, now ELDM or X. or 160gn Sierra TMK's, or Berger 168 VLD hunting or 168 Classic Hunter. As a side note, Nosler typically overstate their BC's.

Originally Posted by chainsaw

I'm impressed by your ability to accept all inputs without adverse reaction. Well done & hang in there.
The AB is a great pill for close up ranges (0- 300 or 350 yrd) and larger game, but at 5 - 600 yards you'll find its probably too tough, being a bonded projectile) & may pencil thru an animal with out doing much internal damage (unless you strike bone). Animal in this case may escape a long way before succumbing. Effect may be more exaggerated on smaller/lighter game. For longer range you'd be better of with more frangible pill like the old 162gn AMAX, now ELDM or X. or 160gn Sierra TMK's, or Berger 168 VLD hunting or 168 Classic Hunter. As a side note, Nosler typically overstate their BC's.

Thanks, may aswell take any advice given seen as it’s not hard to know more or have more experience in this field than me so I’m always all ears. Keen to learn.
I did have quite a look at projectiles before buying and a couple people i work with raved about the Accubonds. Not saying it’s the perfect projectile but I have about 70 left so may aswell try to make them work for now. Question; you noted the ELDM, are match bullets still alright for hunting purposes? What is the difference between a match bullet like the ELDM compared to the X?
Cheers

or the cheaper and easier to get nosler ballistic tip...which SHOULD pretty much be swappable with no change to anything...AB for close BT for longer...and yes agree its nice to see someone take advice.