Thread: Rifle and reloaded ammo accuracy

Originally Posted by ebf

Horses for courses. My Russian tomato stake/bush rifle with open sights, I am happy if I consistently hit an a4 page at 100 (prone) or same at 50 (offhand).

3 shot groups mean almost nothing. 5 shot groups are slightly better. 10 shot groups start to tell the truth.

My dedicated FTR rifle probably does 1/3 Moa from a machine rest. When you add in wind and 10 shot groups in the real world, 1 to 1.5 Moa on a good day.

The top benchrest rifles in the world do 1/5 or slightly smaller 5 shot groups. So I would treat reports of 1/4 Moa groups out of standard sporter hunting rifles with a bit of healthy suspicion

I did say 3 shot groups.
10 shot groups are a bit pointless in a hunting rifle with a 3 shot magazine and a pencil barrel.

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My idea basically boils down to wanting as accurate as I can reasonably get for my type of rifle, which generally isn't flash. That inaccuracy can be extrapolated out to find a maximum distance where you will be inside the vital zone (I halve the recommended diameter and taking into account mean trajectory) and take that as my maximum in ideal conditions. Note, that I've only used this on small game so far and it tends to work for me.

I got caught with doing 3 shot groups with a rifle that was shooting erratically. Initally blamed the scope, so changed it and re zeroed. Thought the 2nd shot must have been bad cos 1&3 were spot on.
Still no better, shot a 5 round string and got 2 separate groups. Sought some advice, turned out the bedding was poked. Since then I do 5 as a matter of course.

Thanks all for the advice, just to let you know my load for the Sierra 55gr sbt was about 30mm at 100m of the bench.

I seated the same projectile out a bit further and with the same powder load. I shot a group today at 90m lying prone which I easily covered with our 5c coin (19mm in dia). That's covering the whole group so from centre to centre is about 8mm. Super happy with this as I really like that projectile just wanted to tighten the groups a little. Only shot 1x 3 shot group as I was in a hurry but hopefully it will be consistent.!!

3 shot groups are statistically pointless. Group size is more affected by random distribution than barrel accuracy. A 5 shot group is the minimum number that you can see a clear trend.

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Originally Posted by Feather or Shoot

3 shot groups are statistically pointless.
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You see I have trouble with this, friends and enemies alike have always told me the same thing, [not just your statment F&S.]

So tell me how, if I take say my 30 06 to the range and it will put three shots in moa at 100m then the next ime I take it out it will do the same thing in the same place, then .. etc etc.

However when I attempt to shoot 5 shots, my group opens up, whether this is because I cannot hold for five shots with an un braked or unsuppressed 30 06 or because the rifle is playing up I don't really know although it has been professionally bedded into a Bell and Carlson Alaskan 11 stock.

How then can my consistant three shot groups with hunting ammo be pointless.

Originally Posted by Feather or Shoot

3 shot groups are statistically pointless. Group size is more affected by random distribution than barrel accuracy. A 5 shot group is the minimum number that you can see a clear trend.

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A 5 shot group for a hunting rifle would statistically be more pointless than a 3 shot group by the nature of how it is used. For a hunting rifle for big game a string of single shot groups over time is statistically much more relevant as in R93's thread. I am talking from a mathematical, engineering and logic point of view.

I disagree.

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Me to. Some rifle might shoot the three first shots tight and then start to open up. Or might have the first shot cold at one spot and the two next shot touching somewhere else 1" or 2" apart from the first shot. And after further testings the same pattern might keep on repeating itself again and again. So the same trend with 3 shot in these cases where enough to show what the rifle does. All 5 shots would do is show you how wide ( or tight) the group is for 5 shots.
And to my eyes,when hunting, I want to know where my first bullet is going to hit and what my second bullet will do. If you need five shots on an animal, maybe should have not taken the first shot at all...

Originally Posted by Friwi

Me to. Some rifle might shoot the three first shots tight and then start to open up. Or might have the first shot cold at one spot and the two next shot touching somewhere else 1" or 2" apart from the first shot. And after further testings the same pattern might keep on repeating itself again and again. So the same trend with 3 shot in these cases where enough to show what the rifle does. All 5 shots would do is show you how wide ( or tight) the group is for 5 shots.
And to my eyes,when hunting, I want to know where my first bullet is going to hit and what my second bullet will do. If you need five shots on an animal, maybe should have not taken the first shot at all...

Then overlay the patterns your rifle shoots and when you see the group that your first three shots, on each pattern, makes that is the limit of accuracy of your rifle.
No rifle will put its first three shots in the same place every time.

I'd do 5 shots 5 minutes apart for a 5 shot cold bore group. Then there would be less "three times lucky, look I've got a half moa rifle"

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If I had of said , roughly the same place , you would have pounced on that
It is an unwinable discussion
Starting from a cold barrel, if any hunting rifle used for bigger game can shoot a three shot under moa, then what more would you want.

If that worried about M.O.A .....get closer....


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If it is a hunting rifle, where the first shot goes on a clean barrel is the most important thing to me.

The target I was using for that thread was accidentally thrown out by the cook cleaning up the garage.
I may try it again as I did learn a lot from it.

I hate the 3 shot vs 5 shot argument when it comes to a hunting rifle.
It is pointless.





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Originally Posted by R93

The target I was using for that thread was accidentally thrown out by the cook cleaning up the garage.
I may try it again as I did learn a lot from it.

I hate the 3 shot vs 5 shot argument when it comes to a hunting rifle.
It is pointless.





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You should just print the photo of it to scale and continue! We won't judge....much