Thread: A superb article on why "node load deveopment" is toast

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
The Audette ladder test was fired at long range of several hundred metres with single shots at each of an ascending range of powder loads. It was done to find quiet spots where the normal upward progress in the shots on the target. Where several shots were closer together this identified a point where the barrel was in a quiet spot in its vibration cycles, really useful for shooting at long range.
Regards Grandpamac.

It suffers the same problem that I have demonstrated with selecting "good" loads based on 3 shot groups, or "good" loads based on "flat spots in velocity" from ladders as shown in the linked article


It has not been demonstrated to produce any difference between loads when they are measured properly - with a meaningful sample size

Ive mucked around with neck sizing but for hunting the security of knowing every round will fit the chamber is reassuring.

My load development has always been random and unsophisticated. Work towards max pressure at mag length from mid range with a couple of rounds for each load and then back off a bit when I see a sign of pressure like a change in the primer. If it groups "good enough" there job done, otherwise I pick one of the 2 shot groups that looks the best and settle there.

Sometimes I get it spot on with little groups. Sometimes hovering just under an inch for 3 shots. I don't over fuss. My head wont let me settle for anything under an inch though.
If I miss an animal from there on out it certainly isn't the load's fault.

Some of this load development stuff can be too heavenly to be of any earthly use. But I do understand the fascination.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Some of this load development stuff can be too heavenly to be of any earthly use.

This is precisely the reason to do it as efficiently as possible! To understand "what is actually useful"



It turns out much of what we've done for a long time - isn't useful - and can be done much more efficiently

Originally Posted by Tahr

Ive mucked around with neck sizing but for hunting the security of knowing every round will fit the chamber is reassuring.

Yeah I had that happen once a few moons never made that mistake again.

Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Tahr

Ive mucked around with neck sizing but for hunting the security of knowing every round will fit the chamber is reassuring.

My load development has always been random and unsophisticated. Work towards max pressure at mag length from mid range with a couple of rounds for each load and then back off a bit when I see a sign of pressure like a change in the primer. If it groups "good enough" there job done, otherwise I pick one of the 2 shot groups that looks the best and settle there.

Sometimes I get it spot on with little groups. Sometimes hovering just under an inch for 3 shots. I don't over fuss. My head wont let me settle for anything under an inch though.
If I miss an animal from there on out it certainly isn't the load's fault.

Some of this load development stuff can be too heavenly to be of any earthly use. But I do understand the fascination.

Sums up my process too. If I dont get the velocity I want and accuracy Ill change projectiles rather than stuff around looking for some magical thousandths of an inch or .1gr of powder.

I used to think I was charmed as my rifles always shot as well or better than my mates who spent hours working this stuff out. Turns out I am probably just part of the noise.

I suspected Santa wasn't real

I had bookmarked a thread on AccurateShooter years ago just for reference and it's relevant to this discussion as it contains the best quote on "nodes" I have seen

"A node is a mythical place, like Shangri-La or El Dorado, where all dreams come true and everything is wonderful. Despite no evidence that such places exist, many still embrace the notion and spend their lives and fortunes seeking them." from https://forum.accurateshooter.com/th.../post-37017061

there are some other gems in that thread as well such as

I sometimes wonder if load development and tuning are real except in the minds of the shooters. Don’t know. Just thoughts. Probably gonna start a food fight. I apologize in advance.

Originally Posted by Tentman

https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/rifle-nodes/

For those especially too busy to watch Hornardy podcast #50 or requiring further evidence to lose an entrenched mindset!

Hey...

The "Your Groups Are Too Small" series really got me thinking and changed my way of load testing and development quite a bit.
I think it was well worth to watch the two main videos and invest that time.
Awesome info in it!
Even after taking into consideration that it is a Hornady marketing show after all!

@Tentman On a completely other note:

Thank you very much indeed, for that very generous offer via mail!
Awewome...
Somehow I just can not get my answer through to you.
Mail delivery error all the time.
And being a newb here, I can also not find the right button to send you a personal message or mail via the forum.
Maybe you or someone else can help me with that...
But again:
Really cool move and much appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

Originally Posted by Ben_SK

Hey...

The "Your Groups Are Too Small" series really got me thinking and changed my way of load testing and development quite a bit.
I think it was well worth to watch the two main videos and invest that time.
Awesome info in it!
Even after taking into consideration that it is a Hornady marketing show after all!

@Tentman On a completely other note:

Thank you very much indeed, for that very generous offer via mail!
Awewome...
Somehow I just can not get my answer through to you.
Mail delivery error all the time.
And being a newb here, I can also not find the right button to send you a personal message or mail via the forum.
Maybe you or someone else can help me with that...
But again:
Really cool move and much appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

Your PMs should come on soon, we can do it then.

After neck sizing cases I run them through the rifle seems an easy way to avoid a round not chambering...

Mind you I do it when I fl as well...

I can't put my hand on it, but somewhere I have a 20-round target which is basically two points of impact with two distinct groups, one of about 13 rounds the other 7. Each group is about an inch, but about 3 inches apart on the diagonal (shot at 100m, single point of aim roughly in the middle of the two points of impact). Ammo was a single packet of quality hunting ammo, .308 cal. Could find no reason to explain it as far as rifle or scope. Rifle was fine as a bush hunting piece, as far as I know it's still doing the job and still set up the same.

Mechanical precision? Or something else?

Perhaps bedding or action screws totque issue. Bbl heating can influence torques if bbl is not fully free floated too. Even a small obsttuction falling into gap betwwrn mag box and inlettong can cause issues. Same if bolt handle comes in contact with a swelling stock.

A wise man once said to me he picked a load between middle n hot in manual,loaded up rounds and went hunting...not a hell of a lot different to back when we just bought box of whatever was on shelf,fired a couple of shots into a pizza box to check zero and carried on. My days of firing fifteen into paper and five at animals are long over.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

A wise man once said to me he picked a load between middle n hot in manual,loaded up rounds and went hunting...not a hell of a lot different to back when we just bought box of whatever was on shelf,fired a couple of shots into a pizza box to check zero and carried on. My days of firing fifteen into paper and five at animals are long over.

Haha that's what I did for my 416 rem.
Some head scratching over powder (ended up with 2206 only because it could do lighter bullets-more useful for deer type animals here in nz). Started in the higher level of middle and had loads I reckoned to do 1"ish at a hundy. Only shot at 50 as it was handy and still had some ammo that it was sighted in to use up first.
A couple put over a mates chrony a while later showed very good velocity, actually very close to the full load specs from ADI.
Which is also a classic example of why you are meant to start low lol.
Fast forward to recently, an acquaintance put some down range with his batch of 2206 and went with a mid range load about a grain less than mine.
Applicable drop in speed by about 100-150fps but was shooting moa at a hundy.
Just a good mix of powder, projectiles, cases and rifle