Thread: 223 on deer

Greetings All,
I can see one big fat pressure sign that was ignored and that was the velocity. 2,950 fps with the 73 grain projectile! The only data I can turn up for this projectile tops out at a little over 2,850 fps in a 22" barrel. Before most of us were born Julian Hatcher wrote in the NRA Journal that primer appearance was practically worthless for judging pressure. He had spent his whole military career working in internal and external ballistics. I am not getting at you @zeropak as you are likely following advice of others. I found some data for AR2206H with the 75 grain Hornady HPTBT which gave a max load of 22 grains of AD2206H for a velocity of 2,588 fps. This is closer to what I would expect.
There was an excellent vid on here a we while back where some handloaders ran the loads in a .308 well up in the danger zone. They were well above 80,000PSI before primers showed signs of stress. After tinkering with all manner of pressure guessing techniques over the last 50 years of my handloading I have formed the opinion that specific load data for the projectile and powder plus the use of a chronograph is the only reliable way of estimating pressure.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
I can see one big fat pressure sign that was ignored and that was the velocity. 2,950 fps with the 73 grain projectile! The only data I can turn up for this projectile tops out at a little over 2,850 fps in a 22" barrel. Before most of us were born Julian Hatcher wrote in the NRA Journal that primer appearance was practically worthless for judging pressure. He had spent his whole military career working in internal and external ballistics. I am not getting at you @zeropak as you are likely following advice of others. I found some data for AR2206H with the 75 grain Hornady HPTBT which gave a max load of 22 grains of AD2206H for a velocity of 2,588 fps. This is closer to what I would expect.
There was an excellent vid on here a we while back where some handloaders ran the loads in a .308 well up in the danger zone. They were well above 80,000PSI before primers showed signs of stress. After tinkering with all manner of pressure guessing techniques over the last 50 years of my handloading I have formed the opinion that specific load data for the projectile and powder plus the use of a chronograph is the only reliable way of estimating pressure.
Regards Grandpamac.

You make a good point @grandpamac. To be honest I was very surprised to get so much extra velocity out of the 2206H vs my old load with the 2208. I guess you don't get something for nothing, as the the velocity goes up so should the pressure. I still can't quite figure out why my velocities with 2208. 2750 with 25gn is quite a bit below what I could assume after reading the IDA load data vs the 25gn 2206H at 2950 which with a 20" barrel is probably higher than I should expect. Anyway this whole conversation has made me pause and consider what to load moving forward, I expect I will pull back a little on that 25gn of2206H and still be happy I am getting much better velocities than I was with the 2208.

24g 2206H, 2.4OAL, 2800fps 18in barrel. 73gr ELDM
4 rounds at 100m.

Gunsmiths comment was that the barrel was potentially reusable, so no blockages etc. I don't know anymore except that the wrecked rifle was extremely sobbering viewing, made all the more so by the fact that a young guy lost his eye. It's is only supposition that the "factory round" was over pressure, could have been a dud action - albeit one that had functioned OK for hundreds of rounds.

I analyse quite a few "forum loads" and yes, many of them appear to be 70K and plus, as @grandpamac points out the velocity is usually a dead giveaway. If you want to shoot such loads be my guest, but don't come crying when a flawed case or action etc let's go and you have a face full of brass or worse

Originally Posted by Tentman

Gunsmiths comment was that the barrel was potentially reusable, so no blockages etc. I don't know anymore except that the wrecked rifle was extremely sobbering viewing, made all the more so by the fact that a young guy lost his eye. It's is only supposition that the "factory round" was over pressure, could have been a dud action - albeit one that had functioned OK for hundreds of rounds.

I analyse quite a few "forum loads" and yes, many of them appear to be 70K and plus, as @grandpamac points out the velocity is usually a dead giveaway. If you want to shoot such loads be my guest, but don't come crying when a flawed case or action etc let's go and you have a face full of brass or worse

Id love to know more on the failure as for the action to drastically fail whilst still holding pressure long enough to send the projectile out the barrel. All i can think otherwise is a very hot "factory load" and maybe an oiled chamber etc

That or a faulty action that had heat treat issues or something we just have a bunch of steel shafts at work come in that all had subsurface longitudinal cracking that was revealed once the outer ground surface was turned downed. would be interesting to hardness test the bolt/action.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Id love to know more on the failure as for the action to drastically fail whilst still holding pressure long enough to send the projectile out the barrel. All i can think otherwise is a very hot "factory load" and maybe an oiled chamber etc

That or a faulty action that had heat treat issues or something we just have a bunch of steel shafts at work come in that all had subsurface longitudinal cracking that was revealed once the outer ground surface was turned downed. would be interesting to hardness test the bolt/action.

Yeah always wonder about these scenarios, the tikka plastic bolt shroud does shatter when you have a case failure and gas ejects out the firing pin channel, that can't be good for the eyes.

Originally Posted by gimp

Yeah always wonder about these scenarios, the tikka plastic bolt shroud does shatter when you have a case failure and gas ejects out the firing pin channel, that can't be good for the eyes.

I did actually wonder that. The bulk Belmont stuff at h&F was well known for case head separation in ARs

73 ELDM
59.2mm COAL
25grain 2206h 2900fps 59450psi 31grain H20
2956fps 64700psi 30grain H20 case capacity

Thoughts on this GRT simulation using @zeropak data

ADI Current Data.

75 GR. JLK VLDAR2206H.224"2.250"Starting22.5 grain2696 fps39900 cupMaximum24.5 grain2905 fps50000 cup

I use near to this max load with 74 grn Targex for 2930 fps from a common garden T3. Fired many hundreds of them. Mixed brass lasts well and no failures. Mine are seated well out in a waters mag and that would drop the pressure a bit I expect. But I would think that most .223 deer hunting loads are up at the top end of the ADI table.

The following is Hornady data. 5.56 nato which will all know runs higher pressure, but this is also for an AR15. A tikka with a long throat will run every bit as well with these loads. I run 24gr 2206H with 80gr ELD-M in my extra long throat tikka. The 20” barrel sends them at 2750fps and that’s just fine. The cold hard reality is it’s not worth fighting physics for another 50fps. It will make zero difference to the end result because as a general rule- we suck at shooting, and we’re even worse at reading the wind. Even 100fps more isn’t going to make a noticeable terminal or range difference.

If you need to go fast, open it up to 22 creedmoor and really get into it

My sako vixen 223 with 1 in 8 barrel at 16.5 inches does 2780 with 25 grains of 2208 and 73 eld m.

2950 with a 73 ELDM is within "reasonable to expect" for a .223 with a 20 inch barrel I would think.

Looking at the data, ADI lists a 70gr Speer which has miles more bearing surface than the 73gr ELD at 2997 with 06H and 3024 with 08. If you expect 20fps loss per inch you'd be looking at 2920 with 06H or 2940 with 08.

Of course that's max load for Saami Max pressure of 55,000psi which is a lower max pressure than we are running in all modern cartridges and can probably be safely exceeded to 60,000 psi or so without even noticing in quality brass, action fatigue isn't going to be a problem with a modern action like a Remington 700 due to the tiny bolt thrust & relative hoop strength of the chamber with the .223 case relative to other cartridges chambered in the same action, the only risk would be case failure

Originally Posted by gimp

2950 with a 73 ELDM is within "reasonable to expect" for a .223 with a 20 inch barrel I would think.

Looking at the data, ADI lists a 70gr Speer which has miles more bearing surface than the 73gr ELD at 2997 with 06H and 3024 with 08. If you expect 20fps loss per inch you'd be looking at 2920 with 06H or 2940 with 08.

Of course that's max load for Saami Max pressure of 55,000psi which is a lower max pressure than we are running in all modern cartridges and can probably be safely exceeded to 60,000 psi or so without even noticing in quality brass, action fatigue isn't going to be a problem with a modern action like a Remington 700 due to the tiny bolt thrust & relative hoop strength of the chamber with the .223 case relative to other cartridges chambered in the same action, the only risk would be case failure

Greetings,
This fascinated me a bit so I went out to the shed. 69grain Sierra HPTBT, Speer 70 grain semi point and 75 grain Hornady ELDM projectiles were fished out. I didn't have any 73 grain. The first thing that struck me was how long the ELDM projectiles were. The 69 grain Sierra projectiles are seated in my T3 mag about as long as the mag will allow so the ELDM projectiles will need to be seated to the same LOA. The ELDM projectiles are 5.8mm longer and will stick that much further into the powder space raising both pressure and velocity. Admittedly the 73 grain ELDM will be a little shorter but not that much. The 70 grain Speer is a completely different projectile so a poor comparison to a spitzer BT in my view with the Sierra a better comparison.
In summary compared the the 69 grain Sierra we have a significantly longer projectile plus heavier and in the T3 seated significantly deeper as well. All raise pressure and reduce the safety margin for a few fps more velocity. Not worth an eye in my book.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
This fascinated me a bit so I went out to the shed. 69grain Sierra HPTBT, Speer 70 grain semi point and 75 grain Hornady ELDM projectiles were fished out. I didn't have any 73 grain. The first thing that struck me was how long the ELDM projectiles were. The 69 grain Sierra projectiles are seated in my T3 mag about as long as the mag will allow so the ELDM projectiles will need to be seated to the same LOA. The ELDM projectiles are 5.8mm longer and will stick that much further into the powder space raising both pressure and velocity. Admittedly the 73 grain ELDM will be a little shorter but not that much. The 70 grain Speer is a completely different projectile so a poor comparison to a spitzer BT in my view with the Sierra a better comparison.
In summary compared the the 69 grain Sierra we have a significantly longer projectile plus heavier and in the T3 seated significantly deeper as well. All raise pressure and reduce the safety margin for a few fps more velocity. Not worth an eye in my book.
Regards Grandpamac.

You're absolutely correct if one is working in the confines of a 2.26" OAL standard SAAMI mag and that should be noted.


If there is the ability to load out longer than 2.26" OAL, e.g. using a waters-rifleman tikka mag, or an AICS of some flavour in any rifle, then the reduced case capacity due to the longer bullet is not an issue - typically you can seat these long, aerodynamic 70-80gr class of bullets with the base around the neck/shoulder junction of the case without jamming into the lands with a standard 223 chamber and a longer mag.


Anyone considering using these heavy for cal bullets should be looking at an over-length magazine option.