Thread: 223 on deer

Originally Posted by Tentman

What sort of velocity do you get (from what length of barrel) Ta

Don't know sorry. My old F1 Chrony gave up as I was about to test this ammo. I was expecting 2960 - 3000 fps from a 16" 1-7 barrel.

ProChrono from another forum member on it's way... will let you know.

Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

Thanks for the chart, all I know is the tusocks were blowing sideways and it was hard to stand up in so in my book it was blowing a gale but as for the exact technical terms I'm no expert sorry.

I wouldn't worry about it

6.3MIL or 173cm of wind drift at 330m would be difficult to judge!

I got a chance over the last weekend to give the 223 a proper workout on some fallow. Using the Hornady 73gn ELDM at ranges from 170m out to 300m. The performance of these little pills was stunning, shot a total of 8 deer 3 stags a Hind, 2 Yearlings and 2 spikers. Shoulder shots were breaking both shoulders, shots behind the shoulder were causing massive internal damage and still dropping them almost on the spot, a few steps and down they went. The tissue damage was more extreme than my 6.5cm using 130gn Sierra TGK's. I know that this will be nothing new to those who already use the 223 with great success but this is my first serious outing with it and I was a little skeptical of using those tiny pills. I am now a convert, the 6.5cm might be getting left behind on future trips.
PS this was a culling operation on the back of a farm with large deer number which needed to be reduced, all the animals were recovered and no meat was wasted, it was all processed and passed out to friends and family.

Originally Posted by zeropak

I got a chance over the last weekend to give the 223 a proper workout on some fallow. Using the Hornady 73gn ELDM at ranges from 170m out to 300m. The performance of these little pills was stunning, shot a total of 8 deer 3 stags a Hind, 2 Yearlings and 2 spikers. Shoulder shots were breaking both shoulders, shots behind the shoulder were causing massive internal damage and still dropping them almost on the spot, a few steps and down they went. The tissue damage was more extreme than my 6.5cm using 130gn Sierra TGK's. I know that this will be nothing new to those who already use the 223 with great success but this is my first serious outing with it and I was a little skeptical of using those tiny pills. I am now a convert, the 6.5cm might be getting left behind on future trips.
PS this was a culling operation on the back of a farm with large deer number which needed to be reduced, all the animals were recovered and no meat was wasted, it was all processed and passed out to friends and family.

@zeropak what speed are you running them at? Have just started loading them and getting good accuracy at 2680fps out of my 16". I have taken them to 2750, but accuracy goes to shit and pressure is obvious. I wanted to try the TMK's for deer but these are alot cheaper.

those were doing 2760. 73gn ELDM with 25gn of 2208. Just using those up and will change to 25gn 2206h which is giving me 2950fps. This is a max load and shoots very well. By all reports the TMK's go well. But man its hard to fault the performance of those ELDM's.
What powder are you using?

Originally Posted by zeropak

those were doing 2760. 73gn ELDM with 25gn of 2208. Just using those up and will change to 25gn 2206h which is giving me 2950fps. This is a max load and shoots very well. By all reports the TMK's go well. But man its hard to fault the performance of those ELDM's.
What powder are you using?

For those reading this thread, these are extremely hot loads, to the point of being dangerous. GRT (albeit not calibrated with old mates brass capacity COAL or exact barrel length ) gives a pressure of around 70,000 psi for 25 of AR2206H behind a 73 gn. There is a 223 Tikka action in a local gunshop that has amoung other damage a cracked bolt and it took the shooters eye out - permanently!. This was with factory ammo, if you are operating any action in this pressure range there is the potential of catastrophic failure.

Originally Posted by Tentman

For those reading this thread, these are extremely hot loads, to the point of being dangerous. GRT (albeit not calibrated with old mates brass capacity COAL or exact barrel length ) gives a pressure of around 70,000 psi for 25 of AR2206H behind a 73 gn. There is a 223 Tikka action in a local gunshop that has amoung other damage a cracked bolt and it took the shooters eye out - permanently!. This was with factory ammo, if you are operating any action in this pressure range there is the potential of catastrophic failure.

Ok Thanks I appreciate the feedback. I was worked up to this load from 23.5 grains and do notice slight primer cratering. I did use the ADI Load data which gives a max load of 25gns of 2206h behind a 70gn projectile and 24.5gns behind a 75gn projectile. But you have good point, what works in 1 rifle is not always going to work on another and max loads should always be worked up to.

The 73gr ELD-m go good in two tikka’s that I know of and another mate that want to give them a go when his Waterman mag turns up. Been running 24.5gr AR2208 seat out 2.511” OAL in mine with great accuracy.

My Bergara looks like it will shoot the 73s pretty good, 3/4 MOA or better, currently I'm experimenting with seating depth after getting to 2760 with 23.6 of AR2206H, not bad from an 18" barrel.

Greetings All,
I can see one big fat pressure sign that was ignored and that was the velocity. 2,950 fps with the 73 grain projectile! The only data I can turn up for this projectile tops out at a little over 2,850 fps in a 22" barrel. Before most of us were born Julian Hatcher wrote in the NRA Journal that primer appearance was practically worthless for judging pressure. He had spent his whole military career working in internal and external ballistics. I am not getting at you @zeropak as you are likely following advice of others. I found some data for AR2206H with the 75 grain Hornady HPTBT which gave a max load of 22 grains of AD2206H for a velocity of 2,588 fps. This is closer to what I would expect.
There was an excellent vid on here a we while back where some handloaders ran the loads in a .308 well up in the danger zone. They were well above 80,000PSI before primers showed signs of stress. After tinkering with all manner of pressure guessing techniques over the last 50 years of my handloading I have formed the opinion that specific load data for the projectile and powder plus the use of a chronograph is the only reliable way of estimating pressure.
Regards Grandpamac.

24g 2206H, 2.4OAL, 2800fps 18in barrel. 73gr ELDM
4 rounds at 100m.

Originally Posted by Tentman

For those reading this thread, these are extremely hot loads, to the point of being dangerous. GRT (albeit not calibrated with old mates brass capacity COAL or exact barrel length ) gives a pressure of around 70,000 psi for 25 of AR2206H behind a 73 gn. There is a 223 Tikka action in a local gunshop that has amoung other damage a cracked bolt and it took the shooters eye out - permanently!. This was with factory ammo, if you are operating any action in this pressure range there is the potential of catastrophic failure.

Genuine question as this makes little to no sense to me without full info on the incident. 70kpsi in a 223 case has significantly less bolt thrust than a 300wsm at Saami max (about half) for example which is acting on the lugs and significantly more material left around the barrel which is where the excess pressure would be acting. Most actions are proofed to well beyond a 2x FOS. For a 223 to crack a bolt would suggest pressures much higher than 70kpsi and Id have to hazard a guess at a blocked barrel or patch etc left in the barrel causing this. Not saying its safe but loading into the 70k realm isn't uncommon (maybe not in 223) and a lot of the common pressure signs in brass dont even show up until higher than this in tight chambers and harder high quality brass.

Id guess there would be a significant number of reloaders on here with Lapua brass pushing these pressures in a huge range of cartridges on this forum.

Gunsmiths comment was that the barrel was potentially reusable, so no blockages etc. I don't know anymore except that the wrecked rifle was extremely sobbering viewing, made all the more so by the fact that a young guy lost his eye. It's is only supposition that the "factory round" was over pressure, could have been a dud action - albeit one that had functioned OK for hundreds of rounds.

I analyse quite a few "forum loads" and yes, many of them appear to be 70K and plus, as @grandpamac points out the velocity is usually a dead giveaway. If you want to shoot such loads be my guest, but don't come crying when a flawed case or action etc let's go and you have a face full of brass or worse

73 ELDM
59.2mm COAL
25grain 2206h 2900fps 59450psi 31grain H20
2956fps 64700psi 30grain H20 case capacity

Thoughts on this GRT simulation using @zeropak data