Thread: 223 on deer

Thanks for the info, I think in reality I'll need to try and stalk into 300yds where I am very confident in a killing shot.

Cheers!

I dont shoot at anything over 300 metres away.

Originally Posted by gimp

A way to assess effective terminal range is to consider whether your bullet will expand. Based on various sources of information, you should probably expect an ELDM to expand down to around 1800fps. Penetration increases inversely related to velocity - so sufficient penetration will not be a problem.

Do you have sufficient retained velocity at that range? If a heavier .224" ELDM hits the animal in the vital zone, and expands, it will kill it.

I'd expect effective expansion from my load (80ELDM) to about 475 metres. I have shot deer to about 420 metres with good results.

Hit probabilty is another consideration, however that is a similar problem with any cartridge at these ranges. You really need to be honest with yourself about your capabilities if you are concerned about missing or shooting animals in the wrong place. Can you regularly hit a 200mm circle first round from the positions you'll be shooting in, in the conditions you'd consider shooting in?

My .223 load outperforms a .308 with a 155gr ELDM in the wind. Many people would be comfortable to recommend the .308 load out to this range. I can make more consistent hits with the .223 in reality.

It will kill a deer even if it doesn't expand. Just because a projectile expands doesn't mean a thing and certainly shouldn't be used to base the terminal performance of a bullet off.

A good cast subsonic load will still expand at 150 yards if it hit a bit if bone, maybe even if it didn't hit bone. Can assure you it will kill the animal if you hit it in the vitals, might just have to track it for a couple of hundred metres. Same effect as using a .223 at a longer range.
Expansion is only a part of the equation.

I've seen plenty of slightly miss placed .223 shots in my line of work and most of the time the deer is gone never to be seen again. Slightly misplaced shots with something like a .308 with eldms or similar soft projectiles often results in a very short track.

Don't get me wrong, I love my .223 but they are simply not the caliber you would take out to try and shoot deer over 500 yards.

Originally Posted by TLB

It will kill a deer even if it doesn't expand. Just because a projectile expands doesn't mean a thing and certainly shouldn't be used to base the terminal performance of a bullet off.

A good cast subsonic load will still expand at 150 yards if it hit a bit if bone, maybe even if it didn't hit bone. Can assure you it will kill the animal if you hit it in the vitals, might just have to track it for a couple of hundred metres. Same effect as using a .223 at a longer range.
Expansion is only a part of the equation.

I've seen plenty of slightly miss placed .223 shots in my line of work and most of the time the deer is gone never to be seen again. Slightly misplaced shots with something like a .308 with eldms or similar soft projectiles often results in a very short track.

Don't get me wrong, I love my .223 but they are simply not the caliber you would take out to try and shoot deer over 500 yards.

Make your mind up.....which is it??? Either a non expanded projectile sliding through making a narrow wound will kill of it won't. Calibre is how fat that non expanding hole is...full stop. Both gimp and tahr have said 350/375 is about maximum range for them. I'm half that.

Your comment re soft eldms and a slight miss hit equals expansion.so again make up your mind.

We are going to have to get Tahr to make a ruling.

Is the .223 just as good as a .308 at 475 metres.

Originally Posted by BillyDixon

We are going to have to get Tahr to make a ruling.

Is the .223 just as good as a .308 at 475 metres.

But it's not that simple is it... .308 goes from 110-220grn from pure varmits explody to fmj or solids. The 223 goes40-80 grn varmits through to solid. If you can place your shot into a vital bit..for sure it will kill. How cleanly and quickly is different story..but we all know that.

To understand experienced or likely terminal results, we can take predictive (speculative) approaches, or empirical observational approaches using data from actual performance.

On the latter, the HornadyLE website is pretty cool - it has gelatin test images for all their LE line of ammunition. It is convenient, as I find their bullets work very well.

Ballistic gelatin tests are a standardised way to compare the performance of various bullets at various speeds in a consistent medium, that is designed to as closely as possible represent the "average" consistency of flesh & bone in a body.

The results are quite interesting and may be informative. It is unfortunate that no hunting ammunition results are published in a similar vein. If anyone has objective empirical data they have gathered from performance in actual animals to show, that would also be of great interest.


.223 75gr "TAP". this is a 75gr poly tipped bullet - basically a 75gr ELDM with a round tip to allow it to fit in AR15 magazines. Fired from a 10.5 inch barreled AR15 at 2200fps. Note the tremendously slow MV and the relative performance.



6mm ARC 106gr "TAP". This is a 106gr version of the ELDM. No, I don't know why. Although it is a slightly different bullet, it is more reasonable to expect that it performs very similarly to a 108gr ELDM, than it is to expect it to perform differently. Fired from an 18 inch barreled AR15 at 2625FPS.



.308 155gr ELDM. Fired from a 26 inch barrel at 2789fps.




Note the penetration and the relative size of the wound cavities. Regardless of the amount of theoretical potential energy the bullet has to transfer; this is the actual result of how it transfers that energy. These are not as different as predictive approaches would have you suggest.

Now there are some .308 loads that do produce a much larger wound cavity - 168gr ELDM at somewhere north of 2700 fps. However note that both this load and the 155gr .308 load penetrate less than the .223 and 6mm. That's most likely a function of the higher impact velocities causing more deformation.




Some food for thought.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Make your mind up.....which is it??? Either a non expanded projectile sliding through making a narrow wound will kill of it won't. Calibre is how fat that non expanding hole is...full stop. Both gimp and tahr have said 350/375 is about maximum range for them. I'm half that.

Everything will kill won't it. My point if you read both the post I commented on and mine was just because a projectile expands well it doesn't mean it kills well. A soft cast going subsonic still expands at quite a range and even placed into the vitals kills slowly. Just because a .223 projectile expands at close to 500 yards doesn't mean it's going to kill well.
A soft eldm out of a .308 is simply going to give you more margin for error at 500 yards than an eldm out of a .223.

Long story short, the first post that Gimp replied to was querying about shooting deer at 530 yards with a .223. Gimp stated "A way to assess effective terminal range is to consider whether your bullet will expand."
I was pointing out that just because a bullet still expands doesn't mean it kills well. Quite simple really.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Make your mind up.....which is it??? Either a non expanded projectile sliding through making a narrow wound will kill of it won't. Calibre is how fat that non expanding hole is...full stop. Both gimp and tahr have said 350/375 is about maximum range for them. I'm half that.

I'm sure Gimp says above that he has shot deer out to 420m, which is about 460 yards, with them. Tahr stated he is most comfy out to 300 with maximum shots out to 375 yards.
Big difference between those two ranges than the 530 yards than MP270 was genuinely querying about.

And both Tahr and Gimp are not your average everyday hunters, their limitations will be a lot higher than most.

So we agree.use enough gun.bigger and more expandy is better but if and only if you can consistently poke pill in right place and follow up if you get a runner....you can use less than ideal round. Personally I don't often use the .224s out long on deer. The wee fallow at 225 yards the other day was pushing it for me...that said it died quicker due to better shot placement than the one at hundy yards a few days later.

Gimp is onto it.

Considering the .223 v .308 debate here, I would pick the .223 every time. It will drift less, and therefore will show less ‘variance’ from expected POI if the wind call is wrong. And that will be the deciding factor. A 80gr ELD-M launched at 2800fps will kill out to near on 600yds if it hits the spot. However, the reality is that the probability of the bullet striking its target (where you want it to) is very low. We’re talking something as low as 30-60%. Brian Litz developed a model that can predict this -it’s called the WEZ (weapon engagement zone)

Oh yeah, the .223 will give you a better chance of hitting due to less recoil too.

450yds is my limit with my .223 in perfect conditions.

You are comparing a heavy long .223 bullet with a very high BC. What about with a comparative .308 bullet?

I personally was comparing the 2 bullets I was shooting side by side recently in .223 and .308.

Originally Posted by TLB

I'm sure Gimp says above that he has shot deer out to 420m, which is about 460 yards, with them. Tahr stated he is most comfy out to 300 with maximum shots out to 375 yards.
Big difference between those two ranges than the 530 yards than MP270 was genuinely querying about.

And both Tahr and Gimp are not your average everyday hunters, their limitations will be a lot higher than most.

I'm definitely more limited than most hunters