Thread: 223 on deer

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and also important to realise that article was written BEFORE the 1;8 twists and heavier than 64grn projectiles were in common usage..MOST folk using a .223 were still using 55grn soft points.
agree 100% flyblown.... you got to place your shots,that hasnt changed...you have more margin for error now..but that will never change.it is after all a tiny bit of metal going fast to take down a big hunk of animal.

I did wonder at how dated the research and conclusions were; there wasn't any obvious date stamp on the website's page; so, it's helpful to have this info.

Originally Posted by Trout

Hi NoMis,good practice for you is to shoot a 100 or so rabbits at 200yds first.Then youl have no problem shoot deer in the right place.

I'd be happy to do that, as I'm partial to rabbit meat, but living in a major urban environment and not having many farming connections, such a possibility is slim. Still, I'm off the range today, so let's see what that brings...

Well, seeing as how the knives are out, I'll add that Mr Foster has yet to be convinced that the 6.5mm is up to cleanly killing red deer. But to be fair, the useful stuff he has done remains useful, the rest we are free to ignore.

"They’re just not inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity."

That's a well-written and mirth-inducing phrase, 7mmsaum

I'm assuming the author is referring to the effectiveness of the 223 at long range on animals?

Because, for the life of me, I can't figure out how all the reds I've shot this year have died given I'm using a 223 in 55g Sako Gamehead SP? All were shot up close in the bush (less 40 yards) have all died within 1-10m, apart from one at a canter that we found 40m away. Chest shots with large exit wounds and broken limbs on the other side, heat shots, neck shots and one shot a bit far back in the rib cage Again, they are no less dead than deer I've shot with the 7mm08 up close.

Well It looks like Nathan Foster might have a bit of history with some forum members. I know nothing about that but I do enjoy his videos and books. I can't say I agree with all his findings and assertions but the amount of research he has done into terminal ballistics is impressive. I was surprised to see that in his latest book he does actually agree that the .223 can be an effective larger game cartridge i.e. used on deer. The proviso as always is the correct bullet choice. I think the smaller and more marginal the chosen cartridge becomes for the intended target, the more important bullet selection becomes.`
Not sure where @Flyblown get the assertion that the 6.5 caliber is not adequate for deer sized game. The stuff I have read recently from Nathan Foster does not give this assertion. Maybe some of his older writing before the modern VLD type projectiles came along, and of course the invincible 6.5 Creedmoor.
Not trying to defend him, I have never met the man but I do think his knowledge on terminal ballistics is impressive.

ACTUALLY if you read what is said...he really rates it,the 6.5x55mm using partitions BUT like doing same in .270w you can get cocky and then have balls up when aim is off LOL....
HORSES FOR COURSES
if you get in close enough and aim well enough you can kill an elephant with a .22 short...its been done its all relative.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

ACTUALLY if you read what is said...he really rates it,the 6.5x55mm using partitions BUT like doing same in .270w you can get cocky and then have balls up when aim is off LOL....
HORSES FOR COURSES
if you get in close enough and aim well enough you can kill an elephant with a .22 short...its been done its all relative.

How many pacaderms have you killed? Thought you only used 50gr TTSX. You down sizing. LOL.

the story goes...native poacher was caught..when he told rangers how he killed jumbo,he wasnt believed,so he demonstrated how...same way they used to use the elephant bow..lay on ground in/under path and shoot up into armpit from below,the heart is very close to surface and has little protection...
50 grn ttsx is my round of choice..but have also killed fallow with 55grn sierra sp and 52grn speer hp and a sierra 63grn sp,the blunt ones last 2 were from the wee .222
shot red spiker with the hornady bulk 55grn..very impressed BUT super calm conditions,calm deer and calm shooter,range was about 100 yards and will back myself to pluck head off bunny at that range with my .223.

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

80 eldm - @gimp using 2208

Originally Posted by zeropak

Well It looks like Nathan Foster might have a bit of history with some forum members. I know nothing about that but I do enjoy his videos and books. I can't say I agree with all his findings and assertions but the amount of research he has done into terminal ballistics is impressive. I was surprised to see that in his latest book he does actually agree that the .223 can be an effective larger game cartridge i.e. used on deer. The proviso as always is the correct bullet choice. I think the smaller and more marginal the chosen cartridge becomes for the intended target, the more important bullet selection becomes.`
Not sure where @Flyblown get the assertion that the 6.5 caliber is not adequate for deer sized game. The stuff I have read recently from Nathan Foster does not give this assertion. Maybe some of his older writing before the modern VLD type projectiles came along, and of course the invincible 6.5 Creedmoor.
Not trying to defend him, I have never met the man but I do think his knowledge on terminal ballistics is impressive.

I may be somewhat cynical. He puts out some interesting information but he is a great user of the cut and paste feature of the internet.

Originally Posted by NoMis

While doing research on another calibre (6.5x55, 160 gr round nose soft point), I came across this Kiwi website that has a lot to say about the .223 as a hunting round. The page briefly recounts the history of the calibre, discusses its performance, compares factory and handloads, and then makes a few concluding remarks. One of the author's performance observations is: "Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock."

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

Holy shit a lot of words. Reckons the 80gr Amax is unreliable. Is wrong - probably has not actually used it. Will steer clear of commentary in general on that source but I'd suggest testing any particlar assertion to check evidence.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

Same with my Tikka it shoots them ok but 77tmk and 80grn Targex through same hole.


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Originally Posted by NoMis

"They’re just not inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity."

That's a well-written and mirth-inducing phrase, 7mmsaum

Dont encourage him NoMis ,that sentence, comes tantalizingly close to the epitome of verbose in its self , as does this.