Thread: 45/70 Subsonic

Originally Posted by rossi.45

i know how big they are face to face . . . back in the day when visiting an animal park a BIG old grumpy Bull Bison took exception to me looking at him, wanted to get thru a fence to get at my mothers youngest son, very impressive animal, surprised how tall they were.

but . . . they're not bullet proof
watch this clip if you want to see a .45/70 with 405grn bullets do the business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkssHWWJWjk

. . . or even arrow proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yce8rhHpm4

Ahh, good on ya Rossi. I looked at both those clips and the first animal was pole axed for sure but then he was only a two year old meat job and probably a steer by the looks. Don't know why they shot him twice. Always hard to tell when listening to gun shots and not seeing the gun but would it be a fair guess that they weren't subs?? The second animal with the bow was a nice three year type and things went just as you would expect with a bow. There was another clip following I saw with a bison hunt 2015. A good sized bull was shot with a big pill out of a 30 06 and it just broke the right shoulder and the bull was left hobbling round waiting to be finished.
When the skin hunters were operating from camps on the red river and in the Texas Panhandle migration, the shooter would ride out and shoot animals on the edge of the herd from horseback ( not wanting to push the main bulk of the herd on or away which would draw the shot animals away too). They would shoot them in the heart / lungs and by the time the shooter had a dozen shot the first ones would be falling over. The skinners would then come out with a wagon and peel em as the herd grazed away from the fallen.
The best place I found to shoot big ones was in the Atlas joint ( where the first vertebrae meets the skull ) Those big bulls are seriously tough and strong. The bones are massive and the muscle and cartilage protecting the chest is like armour and not like domestic cattle. Those horns are for fighting and sharp yet a bull never gets poked by a horn in the neck / shoulder / chest. The hide and muscle is just too tough. Anyway if I were using subs in my 45/70 short ( when I get it finished ) to shoot a serious bison I would be looking for a 600 grainer- with a Big Metplat !!
Confessional, The poem was a way of thanking you for saving my soul. Did you listen to the Kongos ??

there are no Bison where i live, a few Reds, Fallow and Goats about which i will concentrate on in this thread . . . i will leave the Bison to you Moa

R.

Fair enough Rossi, but it was one of us who introduced the Bison Factor by writing that a 45/70 could shoot clear through one and I don't remember it being me.

have you lads contemplated rolling your own black powder to go with this????

Originally Posted by Friwi

I have suppressed a Bergara barrel in 45/70 this avo.it is a take down model. It is quite cool, it comes at 20" long and factory threaded at 5/8-24. I cut it down a little bit and rethreaded at 18x1 which leave more meat and fitted an overbarrel suppressor magnum on it.
Attachment 87787
Just a quick picture.

I did exactly the same. Topped off with a vortex 1-6 viper gen2. Nice but kinda heavy.
Recoil with 325ftx @ 2300 ahh erm , interesting.....

They are a nice unit the Bergara's. Will you be firing heavy subs as well ?

I reckon I'll get there. It's inevitable. I reload -45/70 but Id rather not roll my own projectiles as I've already hot 5 other calibres I reload for.
Can one purhase or acquire good lead projectiles in NZ. 500gr lead at 1000 Fps sounds awesome.

Originally Posted by Jit

I reckon I'll get there. It's inevitable. I reload -45/70 but Id rather not roll my own projectiles as I've already hot 5 other calibres I reload for.
Can one purhase or acquire good lead projectiles in NZ. 500gr lead at 1000 Fps sounds awesome.

One of the blokes in an earlier part of this thread had a mold for 500's. I know that 405 is the standard and the deal that berg 243 mentions is very good, but doing a bit of a mental calculation a 405 will only have a muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds and compared to my 44 with 300grns (muzzle 700 fp @ 1020 fps) I don't know if it is enough of a step up. For my new project gun I am looking for some 500 grn hp's myself right now too. It is an interesting debate over the Hp or big Metplat. My conclusion after looking at youtube big bore air rifles and tests on Black powder arms - minie balls etc is that if the projectile is 'long for calibre' and made of a lead /tin mix it can have both good expansion and penetration. Did you blokes have a look at the Outlaw State website ??

The extra 500 grains going from 405 to 500 will only give an extra 100 or so fps keeping velocity the same. Cast lead at subsonic velocities behaves differently to what you would expect using the supersonic jacketed bullets rules of thumb. Everything Ive read about and seen happen with big cast bullets relates to meplat being the major consideration and not foot pounds. Hollow points often dont open up unless bone is hit, and a solid lead flat point will also deform quite nicely in this case. I shoot the lee flat base 405 in my trapdoor both for target and the occasional hunt. I think its a bit too easy to overthink things. Ive done that myself on numerous occasions end result a long trip back to where I started. Try the 405s get familiar and go from there.

Don't worry MH I have already been over thinking, complicating and driving myself crazy. I even suggested a song to Rossi by the 'Kongos' that I have been listening to which says' I think I nearly thought myself to death etc'. The extra 100 grns will give around 230 foot pounds more energy but more importantly gives length to the projectile, which in a soft projectile with a Hollow point will help hold it together I believe. In the 44 (.429) the 300grainers are too short but heavier than 340 won't stabilise. I am sure that you and Rossi are quite right that a 405 is heavy enough with a big metplat bullet but for a hollow point a 500 might well be better. The performance of 60 grain Aguila 22 ammo compared to 40 grain Win is something that I have considered as a reference.

I am going to disgrace a bit here, but have you guys seen the new ruger number 1 in 450 bushmaster with its 1 in 10" twist barrel?
https://ruger.com/products/no1/specSheets/21304.html

That is not to digress at all Friwi, a very interesting and handsome gun indeed. The Ruger is though much too nice of a rifle to be let fall into grubby hands like mine own that would shorten the barrel and ruin it's classic lines and commit all sorts of mortal sins and blasphemous acts with suppressors and the like.

Originally Posted by berg243

if the ruger was a bit cheaper that would have been what I would have done.

If you are the type of person who would chop the barrel on a Ruger No.1 and fit a suppressor then I can only say that you have an impure mind and need help and soon, Berg. I hope this is not what you actually meant ??.

With a 20" barrel already threaded, I would leave it at that first to try it and see how she behave. Then I would consider maybe shortening the barrel and rethreading.

Originally Posted by Friwi

With a 20" barrel already threaded, I would leave it at that first to try it and see how she behave. Then I would consider maybe shortening the barrel and rethreading.

Blasphemy Friwi ! Whilst cutting the barrel on a No 1 might be legal in this country, it is morally wrong and should not be allowed !!