Thread: 45/70 Subsonic

Originally Posted by craigc

I'm picking mine up from SSRNZ tomorrow. I've opted for a DPT can because of the short barell that I have.

What's the best place to get the Lehigh projectiles from? Straight of their webpage?

i would be very interested n your opinion on the suppressor . . price etc

R.

Rossi, the goats I have shot with the 458 were with a 300 or 350 gr flat nose bullet . The first one I shot at 160 m was a three quarter shot and she flipped over and probably took 10 or 15 seconds to die. But on examination the bullet went behind the rib cage and through the opposite front shoulder , with a hole no bigger then the projectile diametre.

The two or three goats I shot side on after (inside the vitals) all ran off and took more than 15 seconds to die. Again very little damage caused by the bullet. I have never recovered those projectiles .
So yes I don't think a heavier projectile would achieve anything else ( except if it was tumbling and creating a wider wound). I am completlety aware of how energy and energy transfer works at subsonic versus supersonic projectiles.

Re reading an old article about elmer Keith and the development of the 44 magnum and deer shooting at long distance with a handgun( beyond 100 yards) you can clearly see that a good number of deer were running away when the bullets were not hitting the vitals. Some were incapacitated or slowed down and a second well adjusted bullet from the same handgun or a friend rifle was finishing the job. While Keith was certainly an exceptional handgunner I believe he was using his bullets beyond their practical limits on those animals.

Regarding suppressors on those big bore, don't expect much from any brand. I made a long and voluminous suppressor for the 458 socom , but it still make a lot of noise. That is the nature of the beast when you want to quiet 23 gr of trailboss. And that was with the 350 grain bullets. When you jump to 500 grainers , you have to quieten an even bigger quantity of propelling gases.
Good luck with your project . It is all good fun. Just don't expect too too much of it.

the difference between a handgun and a rifle at longer range is accuracy . . . this is a target shot with the main subsonic rifle i used on Goats ( bit of a breeze moved the group over a tad ) the other rifle i used is a bolt action which is a little more accurate with a more powerfull scope.



.45 is going to be noiser . . . Trailboss is not my powder of choice, a fast pistol powder, 12.5grns is better.

as far as expectations go theyre based on experience so i have no illusions there . . . i chose .45s because they dump the animal to the ground with more authority . . others may have different mileage


bit of a ramble here . . . recently took a house guest for a walk up the hill to knock over some Goats, keen young fella, good guy . . . told him how and where to shoot them, when not to . . . well he had some cripples that needed finnishing. The problem was he was still thinking like he had a high velocity cartridge, shoot them in the big bit stuff . . . but it wasnt his fault, it was the subs, fckn useless, thats his story.

That was my lesson, you can tell people the where and the how but they stay at their default settings mostly . . . i can tell you how it works for me, listen if you want but dont tell me your observations are better than mine based 3 or 4 animals


as i said earlier . . . have a look at the picture of the Fallow, what does that tell you @Friwi about the bullets performance ?

R.

Did you reap the shoulder or did the bullet hit ball joint?

Originally Posted by Friwi

Did you reap the shoulder or did the bullet hit ball joint?

i didnt open up the shoulder for a better look . . . looked fckd, typical reaction to getting hit by a .45 caliber bullet with a Big sharp edged meplat.

i can understand why your having trouble believing me when i say such and such happens when i shoot animals with a .45 . . . it doesnt happen in your limited experience, so why would you believe me, i do get it.

all i can say is in my experience a .45 with the right bullet in the right place will the knock the stuffing out of an animal, with a poor choice not so much.

as examples . . . i use to sneak up on a mob of Goats to within 15 odd yards and open up with the .45Colt Rossi and later some with a mildot scoped Wincheter Trapper, the first shot is always the best hit followed by running shots, 95 percent of the time they were flattened or took a few steps before keeling over, the action is thick and fast with reloads untill they get out of range.
a memorable one was a BIG Fallow that broke cover 10yds away going like the clappers across me, this is first time i used 300XTP bullets . . . that knocked him down in mid stride with goop and clockwork spread across the ground, i could look inside his chest, they are a great bullet with similar performance seen often.
that kind of performance i expect with a .45 going because i have seen it many times . . . on my side which maybe you don't have is the amount of time i was shooting and the amount of animals i was shooting. i had time to buy different molds and try each bullet in the field over years.

my advice is get into cast bullets, pick some that have sharp edges on the nose or SWC for pistol, the classic Elmer Keith is a good start .. . just out of interest he wrote a couple of books that are worth reading.

a last thought on the theory that the energy is wasted if it isnt dumped in the animal . . . as far as i can figure ALL the damage is done on the way thru that i need doing, i dont need more . . so what if a bullet that cost me 5c to cast goes into the countryside, i will take over penetration every time to under penetration given the choice.

what bullets are you using @Friwi

thats my thoughts . . others will have different opinions

R

Hi guys, what is the recoil on these (subsonic 45/70) comparable to in terms of centre fire, 243, 260 or 308?
Im attracted to the cartridge and lever actions but don't like big kickers.

Originally Posted by Timmay

Hi guys, what is the recoil on these (subsonic 45/70) comparable to in terms of centre fire, 243, 260 or 308?
Im attracted to the cartridge and lever actions but don't like big kickers.

try this . . .

ShootersCalculator.com | Recoil Calculator

Not as good a bush gun as yours being 1.35 metres long, but with a 82 cm barrel you do get a nice long sight base. The rear sight is ramped up to 2000 yards.
I suspect that even at that range if you hit anything it would be flattened.

there is something about older military weapons . . . always when handling them i cant help but think about the men that made them, those who used them and where.

looks in great condition . . . bet you draw a crowd at the range when you bring that out

R.

Hi Rossi,
I used 350 gr flat point Speer on the goats .I would not mind swapping some lead ( I have a few kg to get rid off) against a few of your cast projectiles to see how they perform. I would also need you to indicate me where to place that bullet in an animal with those cast.
By the way I got my powder wrong. I was using reloader 7 not trail boss.
Thanks.

Barrels got some pitting and the wood has a few dings but if I look as good at 132 years old Ill be pretty happy. Took it to the Toby shoot last year, managed a gong at 475 and p38 did one at 250 but I reckon the star was the potato gun.

The .45/70 is no sissy gun.

What must also have been some gun would be a Lee Metford .303/71.5 firing a 225grain bullet. They actually managed to get 71.5grains of blackpowder into the case - which was of similar dimensions to a 30/40 Krag - by inserting a solid, oblong BP pellet, slightly rounded at its ends and with a hollow through its middle (first instance of a single solid BP pellet?), and only then bottlenecking the cartridge. Obviously not with reloaders in mind.

I think from memory it had some 1800 fps muzzle velocity, whereas the much later cordite Mk 7 .303 fired a 174grain spitzer at up to 2400fps. Can't help thinking what velocity that 174grain spitzer would have flown at if it had its ancestral BP pellet behind it.

Originally Posted by Cordite

The .45/70 is no sissy gun.

What must also have been some gun would be a Lee Metford .303/71.5 firing a 225grain bullet. They actually managed to get 71.5grains of blackpowder into the case - which was of similar dimensions to a 30/40 Krag - by inserting a solid, oblong BP pellet, slightly rounded at its ends and with a hollow through its middle (first instance of a single solid BP pellet?), and only then bottlenecking the cartridge. Obviously not with reloaders in mind.

I think from memory it had some 1800 fps muzzle velocity, whereas the much later cordite Mk 7 .303 fired a 174grain spitzer at up to 2400fps. Can't help thinking what velocity that 174grain spitzer would have flown at if it had its ancestral BP pellet behind it.

all i can say is you wouldnt find me around the potato gun . . . i would be admiring the .45

well done on the LR shooting . . . i can imagine the scene . . . BANG . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . Bong !

R.

Originally Posted by Friwi

Hi Rossi,
I used 350 gr flat point Speer on the goats .I would not mind swapping some lead ( I have a few kg to get rid off) against a few of your cast projectiles to see how they perform. I would also need you to indicate me where to place that bullet in an animal with those cast.
By the way I got my powder wrong. I was using reloader 7 not trail boss.
Thanks.

i can put you on the list for ' things to do ' but be warned its longer than the NZ health surgery list . . . doesnt help that i work split shifts and 13 days on 1 off . . if it wasnt for the odd public holiday etc i wouldnt get anything done.


slightly off topic . . . zeroed this morning the Brno with its new custom 25MOA rail, 4-16 Steiner Military in Burris rings with 40MOA inserts . . .. using subs i have enough elevation for 475yds.
ill push the distance out there for awhile before i go to high velocity LR work . . . thats the plan, i've been working toward this for a few years now and good to get closer.



put a few shots thru the Marlin . . . pity i couldnt get access to the other farm today, wanting to shoot a few big Billys length ways to test penetration





R.