Thread: Commercial vs Recreational Hunting in NZ

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Waro is neccesary, and believe it or not it's not some kind of get rich quick scheme and most the operators that do it use it as a tool to keep cash flowing to make the finance payments on their machines, no waro equals less machines and higher prices for other users (ie:hunters), no waro also means DOC take on full responsibility for managing animal numbers and we all know what that means...
Every time I hear a "hunter" come up with some wonderful story about how a machine came and chased away all "their deer" I do have to wonder how much exaggeration bought on by a acute case of butthurt is involved. There are plenty of animals to go round now more so than ever, if you can't find one and need to blame the machines for your shortcomings maybe take up golf? The way it's been done doesn't need to change at all, there's a few attitudes out there that need a shake up though you guys bagging it seem like the type that moan about politics when you don't actually understand politics, moan about business when you don't understand business etc.

I agree with you if you're just after meat.
I haven't ever seen deer numbers this healthy where I spend my time chasing them.

I can only speak about the coast as I rarely venture elsewhere for meat deer. No need.

We also in parts of the coast have regular waro but in my opinion those areas are still highly productive areas to hunt because of the terrain and how the animals use it.

It's the trophy or potential trophy stags being shot for weight etc out of known trophy herds for a dollar. To me it is just a waste and there is honestly no reason to do it as they are few and far between.
Leaving 1 or 2 stags alone won't make a difference.

You could argue that every spiker is a potential trophy but in reality that is not the case.
I can think of a few areas that could be closed up or have selective waro that would make no difference to any operation worth its salt.

Haast region has seen constant pressure since late 2003 after the sale of feral venison was shut down in 2001. The animals exploded in those 3 years. It was piss easy to fill the chiller.

However, every year since venison started up again there has been one or more 300+ class stags taken out of the region by recreational hunters.

I spose my point is that some areas can handle it due to the country/terrain.

Other areas further north are easy to clean out as the animals do not have the feeder country that is found in South Westland and Otago.
Easier again to hunt from a machine in late summer where the animals are away from cover, stags are generally mobbed up and complacent after no pressure.

I dont want or expect to see a trophy red stag in every valley but I would like to know if I do my research and put an effort in, there is a good chance I might find one because I will only be competing with someone else who planned their hunt the same as me and not a helicopter.











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Originally Posted by GregD

Ryan Songhurst, to say quote "There are plenty of animals to go round now more so than ever, if you can't find one and need to blame the machines for your shortcomings maybe take up golf?" is simply untrue. Up until Waro started up again last February with a vengeance, it had been starting to look very promising with a whole generation of stags being allowed to get some age on them. We are fast degenerating into how bad it was in the dark days of the 80s in a lot of areas.
There are plenty of areas that have had an absolute pasting in the last year, with a whole generation of chopper naive deer since Waro was last viable a number of years ago that have been sitting ducks. I have no issues with them shooting a good number of hinds and cull stags, but of course they have been targeting the big stags in some of our premier trophy bloodline areas, destroying them for another who knows how many years - all for a short term financial gain. I get sent so many pics on a weekely basis of what they are shooting, and it makes you sick. Just this week another massive 16 pointer out of the Canterbury Alps. The operators are largely only doing what the system allows them to do, so I'm not blaming them.
But this boom and bust scenario has to stop, which was sposed to be addressed in the promised Waro review which DoC have now reneged on.
The current system is simply not fair to the majority of public land users, nor sustainable for the Waro guys.

Greg I don't doubt you one bit that maybe they could be more selective when it comes to shooting stags if that's what you're worried about, you do realize that hinds carry genes also?
I don't believe for one minute that we are headed for a situation where deer are going to become extinct in our high country, the problem lays with the attitude that the average hunter has where he goes and thrashes around a hill for a morning, can't find a deer and then blames it all on waro because of the gobbledegoop he's heard and read through places such as this forum. You have stated yourself it comes and goes in waves, maybe we are "riding the crest" of one of those waves at the moment but it's not going to last forever and it's certainly not going to be the end of deer in NZ. There are too many people in this country that have that attitude where they think if someone looks like they are doing better than them or getting an easy ride then they get the pitchforks out, again these guys in the choppers are not making mega bucks out of this and they do it as a way to drum up cash flow to keep their machines in the air, apart from a select few you will find that waro makes up a very small part of their business. Look into guidelines for animals suitable to be taken by waro operators, fine, but ground the machines because you are worried they are going to wipe out an entire herd?? Yea nah.

ryan....hinds carry genes but even if she drops fawn with perfect genetic footprint this year or is in process of weaning it now....its still going to be another 6-8 years untill that maybe perfect/big mature stag is at his peak potential
whereas that 8-10-12pt stag out there now will be good in 1-2 years IF he gets left to grow it out....
heck im a bush hobbit at heart and shoot/fish for the pot 99% of the time HOWEVER if im going to target a big stag it would be nice to know he might be old enough to be worth the effort to pursue..... I know when I do squeeze trigger on a big fella I will nearly kill myself getting as much meat out as I can carry aswell as the antler.

Ryan, yes hinds carry genes but don't grow antlers. Its takes about 6 years for a crop of fawns to mature into possible trophy stags. The Waro guys in some areas have shot a huge percentage of the males, and if it stopped know, its going to be 6 years before anything is going to be old enough again to grow a trophy head. And it looks like these prices are going to continue for the foreseeable future. And in a lot of areas this year they have been shooting all the hinds as well. We don't need/want a high deer population - that is not good for anyone. But we do want a reasonably stable low population with at least 60% stags. That is a sensible balance for both the hunter and the environment. Right now, I can name many, many areas that have had their population reduced to almost zero. Even the Waro guys are struggling to find a deer in there. Because its been 6 or 7 years since these areas have seen a Waro chopper, the deer were completely naive, and the Waro guys themselves have admitted they think they have shot nearly every deer in there over the last year since they started up again. Its going to get harder and harder for them to get the numbers, they move into the remaining less desirable areas, and down and down it will go till it will like it was back in the 80s.
Stupid for them and for us. A sensible managed system with blocks and quotas (and hind/stag ratios) is the only way forward for everyone's sake.
And Berg, this has all taken place in the last year. The last 6 years have been good. Lets see what most hunters think after their annual roar trip this year, unless they're hunting a farm edge reasonably Waro safe area. There is going to be some sad faces come April!

its a shit sammie no matter how you cut it......good on you Greg for getting this info out there...just aswell you have short bush rifles aswell as long range stuff,methinks we will be back to bush hobbit hunting again soon,just when Im finnally starting to get hang of sitting on bum and glassing tussock for deer.....

This is a very difficult debate to win, as often hunters will try and argue "both sides of the coin" and end up contradicting themselves.

Examples like:

Hunters are doing doc a favor shooting deer. Then turn around and say they are a game animal not a pest.


Ban 1080 as it kills deer. Then post a photo of a hunter posing next to a dead deer they've killed.


Hunting is a right for all New Zealander's to participate in free of charge. Then state we need to change the classification of deer to game animals where you'd more than likely have to pay into a management fund in order to increase the chances of getting a big stag.


I guess the bottom line is we all know too many deer (or any other introduced species) isn't a good thing for the Bush. The greenies don't give a rat's arse how the deer are removed...they just want them gone. Hunters on the other hand are willing to accept the cost to the environment and the steady decline having these animals will cause. And there in lies the conflict.

There really isn't an acceptable compromise, as these views are directly opposing. Any compromise will come at an unacceptable cost to the others values.

If I'm to be 100% honest, I value my hunting slightly more than the quest to restore NZ to its pre European environment. Mainly because the genie is already out of the bottle. But my lens on life comes from a bias of been raised around hunters.

Originally Posted by berg243

actually if you factor in what 2million moa ate some who could eat up to 2m from the ground and had a diet similar to deer they are just replacing what was wiped out. funnily takahe survived away from doc control in an area that had a heavy deer presence the possum on the other hand is a new type of vegan in the bush.

According to the internet, which we all know is a reliable source of information...there were 58,000 Moa pre Maori in nz.

Also according to the internet, there's an estimated 250,000 wild deer in nz.

So assuming what you're saying is correct about feeding habits; that's 5:1 deer/Moa ratio.

Now factor in that over 70% of the forest has been destroyed by Maori and Europeans. That's 5x the pressure on only 30% of the remaining land...or as a factor (5/0.3=16.7) 16.7 times the pressure on the remaining bush.

I think you'd have your head in the sand if you really believed that introduced animals are doing no harm to the environment. But in perspective with what humans have/are doing...it's nothing. If we really cared about the environment we'd be looking to eradicate people

Originally Posted by kimjon

According to the internet, which we all know is a reliable source of information...there were 58,000 Moa pre Maori in nz.

Also according to the internet, there's an estimated 250,000 wild deer in nz.

So assuming what you're saying is correct about feeding habits; that's 5:1 deer/Moa ratio.

Now factor in that over 70% of the forest has been destroyed by Maori and Europeans. That's 5x the pressure on only 30% of the remaining land...or as a factor (5/0.3=16.7) 16.7 times the pressure on the remaining bush.

I think you'd have your head in the sand if you really believed that introduced animals are doing no harm to the environment. But in perspective with what humans have/are doing...it's nothing. If we really cared about the environment we'd be looking to eradicate people

You can slue figures however you like....
How much developed land/farm/forestry/re gen is now supporting deer(The majority of the population id wager)

depends on which introduced animal in particular you are thinking of....
Im sure the moa must have already done the boom n bust thing and been in semi settled state when the canoes arrived and started the first KFM paddle through...it was alays going to go downhill from there. any other animal that was introduced just HAD to find its own balance in the ecosystem...some would slot into niche others had to push another off or over to make room...
its a bit like argument that happens each year about dairy bobbie calves "why dont they keep them and rear them all" well you dopey bra burning cardigan wearer...within 3 years there wouldnt be a blade of grass left on entire country including the ones on your back lawn and the front lawn would be covered in crap..your swimming pool would be drank dry and your own water supply would have to be heavily clorinated. add in sheep/goats/poultry and the place would look like Noahs ark before he got the cleaners in....
all things in balance. good supply of stags and a few fat healthy hinds would mean great roaring action and good meat animals. the hard bit it to keep things in balance and majority of people happy.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

depends on which introduced animal in particular you are thinking of....
Im sure the moa must have already done the boom n bust thing and been in semi settled state when the canoes arrived and started the first KFM paddle through...it was alays going to go downhill from there. any other animal that was introduced just HAD to find its own balance in the ecosystem...some would slot into niche others had to push another off or over to make room...
its a bit like argument that happens each year about dairy bobbie calves "why dont they keep them and rear them all" well you dopey bra burning cardigan wearer...within 3 years there wouldnt be a blade of grass left on entire country including the ones on your back lawn and the front lawn would be covered in crap..your swimming pool would be drank dry and your own water supply would have to be heavily clorinated. add in sheep/goats/poultry and the place would look like Noahs ark before he got the cleaners in....
all things in balance. good supply of stags and a few fat healthy hinds would mean great roaring action and good meat animals. the hard bit it to keep things in balance and majority of people happy.

Makes sense to me. Like I said earlier, I have a hunters bias...so as bad as it sounds, I'm okay with the bush steadily declining as I really can't see any way of changing things now.

We all make choices, often to or own detriment. I like alcohol...a lot. Same with eating junk food, and driving and riding vehicles with internal combustion engines. I know I'm an asshole... but there's a lot of others pretending not to be...they're only deluding themselves.

Originally Posted by kimjon

Makes sense to me. Like I said earlier, I have a hunters bias...so as bad as it sounds, I'm okay with the bush steadily declining as I really can't see any way of changing things now.

We all make choices, often to or own detriment. I like alcohol...a lot. Same with eating junk food, and driving and riding vehicles with internal combustion engines. I know I'm an asshole... but there's a lot of others pretending not to be...they're only deluding themselves.

Do you actually see bush steadily declining? I see the opposite....what was nice openish bush with a few game trails is now choked thick under-story in a lot of areas round here.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Do you actually see bush steadily declining? I see the opposite....what was nice openish bush with a few game trails is now choked thick under-story in a lot of areas round here.

1080?

I think most hunters find these conversions very uncomfortable to participate in, as if you choose to argue a pro hunting stance - you're basically saying you value your own hunting opportunities more than the preservation/restoration of the New Zealand environment. But don't feel like it's just you (hunters)...hardly anyone truly cares about the environment. Business, governments, council's, farming, forestry...etc...etc...all pretend to care, but they really don't. If we/they truly did give a fuck, non of us would be living the current lifestyle we are. Once you admit to not fully caring about these things, it's quite liberating as you no longer have to come up with justifications.

Originally Posted by kimjon

1080?

for the most part but also huge increase in population/hunters/ everyone has a 4wd /boat/thermal/nv etc

regeneration of bush/vegetation damage is an interesting one, lets for arguments sake take mount somers as an egzample. pinacles hut was built in slaughter gully back about 25 year ago. its called slaughter gully because Gerry Orouke got stuck into mob of over 100 hinds in there way back in 1900 and nuts and bolts
another fella who meat hunted area in 60s said a group of 6 hinds lived in that same area during that period of time
I spent a heap of time in andaround that hut before I got married and the deer just dont LIVE there any more,neither do the sheep that used to graze right to there from over the back towards waterfall creek.... when I first started hunting area some 25ish years ago I took series of photos right around me (didnt have flash panning digital cameras back then) and the majority of vegetation in the area was about a meter high,if you go back to that same spot now it is well over your head,even the hebe type bushes are huge by comparison to what they were.
the bush in that area has well deserved reputation for being thick tangled crappy going.....plenty regen going on.... beech seedlings everywhere AND broadleaf five finger,seven finger etc too so animal numbers arent whipeing out the vege anytime soon.
the whole arguement that deer COULD go back to numbers of the 40s etc is flawed as times have changed,technology has made your weekend hunter far more able to get out and harvest an animal ,sure we arent as fit as we were back then but with 4wds etc we dont need to be. the big herds of unchecked numbers wont build up because they wont go undetected...eg the back of high country stations get visited all the time and flown over all the time,deer arent going to go undetected and breed up into huge herds because they will be seen...thus able to be dealt with,weather that is by shooting a few for the pot/allowing easier access/search n destroy either foot or by air or waro and dare I say it poison.
times have changed.
put trusty 222 and his lot in the bush areas and some of the long range guys out in open areas and your block animal numbers could be reduced in a big way quickly,buzz around in a 44 on search and destroy and same applies.
its so much easier now as to be a non issue.