Thread: Deer Population Growth

Originally Posted by Flyblown

No offence intended whatsoever but I think this is a very naive view.

The property I was referring to above is adjacent to my permissions. I sit on the boundary and look out over this neighbouring station. I have no rights on that property. The only way the deer could ever be controlled on there would be with helicopter shooting. And in time I am quite sure that is what will happen.

Neither you and your mates nor anyone else on foot would make the slightest bit of difference, such is the terrain.

I know how many deer are getting shot in helicopter culls in that part of the world, and if I said it here, you wouldn’t believe me.

This has got bugger all to do with my “secret spots”. I am just one of several guys that shoot the adjacent farms on a regular basis. There’s nothing secret about it whatsoever.

The way I interpret your response is that there is a hefty dose of envy, which is getting in the way of understanding the practical realities. Like I say I do not mean to offend but sometimes some attitude adjustment needs to happen to be able to see a problem for what it really is.

Please keep your projections to your self, and also understand that my remark was not necessarily aimed directly at you, each and every one will have their reasons, some of them even good reasons.

I do not mind people keeping their secret spots. On the contrary. But there are plenty of new hunters that are struggling to get their freezer filled. Bullshitting about how deer numbers are "exploding" (they are not in many places), does not help.

I also do not necessarily have problems with helicopter operations, as long as the meat is used, on the contrary.

Nearly all land can be made accessible if there is a desire to do so. Ask the early settlers, Sadly we have adopted an attitude of finding excuses not to do something instead of getting on with it.

Originally Posted by STC

Please keep your projections to your self, and also understand that my remark was not necessarily aimed directly at you, each and every one will have their reasons, some of them even good reasons.

I do not mind people keeping their secret spots. On the contrary. But there are plenty of new hunters that are struggling to get their freezer filled. Vullshitting about how deer numbers are "exploding" (they are not in many places), does not help.

I also do not necessarily have problems with helicopter operations, as long as the meat is used, on the contrary.

Nearly all land can be made accessible if there is a desire to do so. Ask the early settlers, Sadly we have adopted an attitude of finding excuses not to do something instead of getting on with it.

Bullshitting? Are you for real?

And helicopter operations always using the meat? Are you aware of the current venison economics? Thousands of deer are being shot to waste right now, because the economics of recovery and processing aren't remotely close to breaking even, let alone turning a profit.

We are free to express our views in open forum and I will do so in this matter whether you like my "projections" or not. Simply put, the answer to this problem is absolutely not giving new hunters permission on every property with a deer control problem. That is an extremely naïve view. Land owners have significant exposure to hunting related risks and unfortunately, the new hunter population is and always has been plagued by the unacceptable number of fuckwits. Why do you think that land owners are so wary of giving strangers permission? New hunters need to work up the ranks just like the rest of us did. They are extremely lucky to have so much public land access in NZ.

I'm quite happy to stand by what I've said. I can't really get my head around you seeming to believe we're making things up about the over-population problem. Unreal.

The NZDA initiatives of working with DOC to take group hunts into special landing zones in high population areas is great. It can cream off good numbers of animals.
The branches that do it often subsidise the costs. Everyone benefits.

Originally Posted by Tahr

eradicate deer

I want to clarify something regarding the use of the word "eradicate"

In wildlife management, "eradication" has a specific definition - the total and permanent removal of a population. There are criteria that determine whether this is technically feasible:
1. Animals must killed at rate faster than rate of increase
2. There must be no immigration into the managed area
3. All reproductive animals must put at risk

It is not possible to meet these criteria for any ungulate species across the whole NZ mainland within any kind of economic scenario you could imagine. Eradication has only ever been seriously considered or attempted on Islands or localised isolated populations on the mainland e.g new releases of deer or isolated populations of goats. There are many examples where attempted localised eradications have failed - they require a lot of funding and must be extremely well planned.

NZ is ~26,000,000ha. Eradication becomes exponentially more difficult and expensive to achieve as area increases. The largest deer eradication from an offshore island to date was Secretary Island in Fiordland at 8,000ha. This cost something like $1,000,000 10 years ago.

Simple multiplication (disregarding the actual exponential cost) gives you an idea of how terrifyingly expensive the idea of eradicating deer from NZ would be even aside from all of the other issues - capability, social license, illegal releases, poor-cost benefit when you consider discounted present value of future benefits, etc.

There is no sensible person or anyone in any position of relevance in any management agency who considers or advocates for eradication of deer from NZ. Even if there were, it is technically and economically impossible.

The only realistic option for managing deer in NZ in the future is sustained control to manage impacts. A sensible, sustainable and realistic picture of what this might look like is yet to be articulated by anyone at all, to my knowledge.

great discussion - shoot to waste has been a culling rule for years - I know of operators going out shooting 500 + to reduce numbers and no recovery -in some areas the numbers are well up especially fallow in many areas - having managed culling operations the rule is dont spend time and money stuffing around with carcasses - use the time to shoot more - simple as that - we need to accept that there will be shoot and leave helicopter operations - access to private requires time and networking - just ringing is not enough - visit and be willing to give something back like a hand with firewood - my good spots took a long time and I dont break any rules put on me - and I make damn sure its the beer that he likes yuk yuk and mother gets wine or premixed

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Bullshitting? Are you for real?

And helicopter operations always using the meat? Are you aware of the current venison economics? Thousands of deer are being shot to waste right now, because the economics of recovery and processing aren't remotely close to breaking even, let alone turning a profit.

We are free to express our views in open forum and I will do so in this matter whether you like my "projections" or not. Simply put, the answer to this problem is absolutely not giving new hunters permission on every property with a deer control problem. That is an extremely naïve view. Land owners have significant exposure to hunting related risks and unfortunately, the new hunter population is and always has been plagued by the unacceptable number of fuckwits. Why do you think that land owners are so wary of giving strangers permission? New hunters need to work up the ranks just like the rest of us did. They are extremely lucky to have so much public land access in NZ.

I'm quite happy to stand by what I've said. I can't really get my head around you seeming to believe we're making things up about the over-population problem. Unreal.

Those who want to achieve something find ways those who do not find reasons...

All these "problems" could be solved or at least mitigated if there was a will. Instead some actors choose to whinge and moan.

Originally Posted by Tahr

The NZDA initiatives of working with DOC to take group hunts into special landing zones in high population areas is great. It can cream off good numbers of animals.
The branches that do it often subsidise the costs. Everyone benefits.

Also being nzda members reduces the risk of there being "fuckwits". And there is insurance.

Win-Win for every party.

that GIMP was a great reply - when I worked for DOC as an Animal Control Manager the term eradicate was never ever used - it was sustained control

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

that GIMP was a great reply - when I worked for DOC as an Animal Control Manager the term eradicate was never ever used - it was sustained control

I have personally heard certain "advocates" for "conservation" publicly express the idea of using genetically engineered viruses to (quote) "eradicate" pests.

Not every player in this "game" is sane or has good intentions, keep that in mind.

From my experience farmers severely underestimate how many deer graze on their properties, they don’t realise that 95% of them are coming out after dark, spending all night grazing and then disappearing back into the bush before first light. For every 3-6 deer grazing it’s the equivalent of 1 heifer, I do wonder if farmers realised it was actually hitting their bottom line they might be more willing to let hunters on their property.

NZ Scientists have been looking at that for years - with possums we were told by one scientist they had a virus that could wipeout possums but did not have an agent to carry it thru the possum population like a cold virus - but yes one hopes it does not go any further with deer - I personally believe with deer they should be shot only but am old fashioned that way

Deer getting like the rabbit problem.For decades they've used rabbit boards,large poisning operations.Dropped 1000s of tons of poison carrots.Virus placements.Rabbit still here in the millions.

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

NZ Scientists have been looking at that for years - with possums we were told by one scientist they had a virus that could wipeout possums but did not have an agent to carry it thru the possum population like a cold virus - but yes one hopes it does not go any further with deer - I personally believe with deer they should be shot only but am old fashioned that way

No-one to my knowledge is or has been actually working on it. Genetic work for conservation was ironically put off the table by everyone's favourite Minister of Conservation (Sage)

There would be huge economic and social hurdles to use even if the technology was ever developed to be functional (which it currently has not been, for anything, anywhere, as far as I know)

Originally Posted by Tahr

The NZDA initiatives of working with DOC to take group hunts into special landing zones in high population areas is great. It can cream off good numbers of animals.
The branches that do it often subsidise the costs. Everyone benefits.

Public DOC land, fine.

Private land? Not so straightforward.

Take a look at the current economic situation. Drystock and honey are under massive pressure. Farm input and application costs have skyrocketed. Interest rates are through the roof. Margins have evaporated and many farms across the country will fail to turn a profit this year and probably next. Many discretionary development projects are on hold, as there is a lot of routine maintenance like fencing. All this stuff you know better than I do of course.

For a private landowner with a significant pest ungulate problem, the only realistic way to make a tangible difference quickly is to bring in professionals. Helicopters or maybe an outfit like Jason Hart’s BCL. But with operating cash under such pressure at the moment, many cockies are turning a blind eye to their problem in the hope that they can deal with it another time. Unfortunately they just can’t afford it right now.

It’s no surprise that so many landowners looking at the value of their properties and how to realise that value to the benefit of themselves and their heirs, are looking into carbon & trees. For a lot of these guys, they just can’t see a way out other than trees.

There are heli culling operations on the west side of the central plateau that are killing >1,000 deer in just a few hours flying time. The GoPro footage is hard to get your head around. I found it very hard to believe the numbers I was being told until I’d seen it. A game strictly for the professionals. But at significant cost to the farmer of course.

To some this appears to be whingeing and moaning, I guess you have to be living in some kind of isolated bubble outside of reality to interpret the problem like that.

A good while ago on this forum - 2-3 years? - someone posted a DOC document that discussed the challenges of controlling ungulates across the central North Island, recognising how broken up the public land is, i.e. how much of the public land is in the form of small blocks landlocked by private land, and how difficult it is to corral private landowners into a concerted regional action plan. I’d love it if we could have another look at that but I’ve not been able to find it. If you know what I’m talking about please provide a link if you’ve got one.

From my experience in the back blocks, it’s hard enough to get neighbours to agree where to place hives, to share boundary fence costs or to sign off on a helicopter cull (you have to have the permission of your neighbours). Quite a lot of the time you’d actually be not that far off the mark believing that a lot of these valleys are in a persistent state of low-level war with one another.

The conversations I’ve had about this problem suggest that if and when the dry stock schedules and other revenue streams like honey return to where they were a few years ago, then some serious dollars will be spent on helicopters. If the venison price was to return to historic highs, be it for human consumption grade or pet food, then some of the venison would be recovered. But at the moment with the MPI regulations as they are they can’t even make it pay for pet food.

It’s a multifaceted problem that’s going to require money and time. In the CNI, the response will be haphazard because some will have both and some will have little of either. Outside of some spectacular local reductions in population through the concerted use of helicopters, I don’t see the problem going away any time soon.

Originally Posted by Trout

Deer getting like the rabbit problem.For decades they've used rabbit boards,large poisning operations.Dropped 1000s of tons of poison carrots.Virus placements.Rabbit still here in the millions.

Rabbit eradication is impossible. Sustained control is necessary to manage impacts on values, economic or other. Sustained means forever. There will be rabbits and there will be rabbit control forever. You should not expect otherwise.