Thread: Defending hunters

Depends how you define sport, I like being out in the bush, I enjoy being amongst nature, learning about the bush and the animals that live in it and appreciating it. I enjoy the hunt, getting in close, pitting my stalking skills against the senses of my quarry and hopefully beating them to get close enough for a shot.
I enjoy the adrenaline rush before finally getting in position to take the shot or when being surprised by my game.
I enjoy the element of fair chase, I like getting in close and engaging their senses, this is more sporting to me than a long range shot where you are not perceived as a threat (not having a go at long range, just a preference!)
I don't need to hunt for food, I can knock over a sheep or beast any time I want, I hunt because of the whole experience of it, getting meat at the end of it is just a bonus to me.
I keep the horns/antlers as they are a nice keepsake for me to remember a particular hunt from, not to gloat to my friends or post on book face.

I consider myself a sport hunter, I don't see anything wrong with it, in fact I see it as better than someone who goes out to get meat at all costs.

Each to your own I guess, just don't tell me that I am wrong because my motives are different to a meat hunter.


On another note, we need to realise that Africa operates on a very different model to here and many other countries, all Hunting is on private or tribal land, it has to be profitable or that land will be used for other farming means. The game has to be worth something or it will be eaten by poor tribes people, put a $50k price tag on it and it is worth more to them to sell to a hunter than to kill and eat (even lion and leopard as although they will not eat it they will kill it to protect livestock).
Trophy hunting is where the money is, it pays the bills and allows the farmer to be able to supply meat hunting to local hunters, often used as part of the culling programme out of season. Meat hunting by itself is not profitable, especially with the amount of security (game scouts, patrols) and fencing (to keep poachers out not animals in) required in Africa.
Yes there are dodgy operators as in any industry, but without the big money trophy hunters bring in, the whole industry will quickly collapse.

Aside from a Cape Buff, the big 5 are not something I would ever hunt, but as long as it is sustainable and supporting the conservation of habitat (this is the key, habitat destruction is the biggest danger to conservation followed closely by unregulated poaching) then I see no problem if it is done legally and as humanely as possible.

Let us take Kenya for example, hunting was banned in 1977 there, since then they have lost 70% of their game, that is massive!
No matter what the motive for hunting, the result is more habitat and subsequently more game.

Originally Posted by Aly

I have a problem when people want to throw *all* hunters under the bus and label them "sport hunters". Those people don't want to accept there are differences. They don't think of conservation for a reason or that providing meat for people as a reason or for farmers hunting is a way of looking after their land. When I have said I go hunting, I have been called that I'm doing it for "sport". That makes no sense to me? When I think of sport hunting I do think of trophy-only hunters, of which I know none personally. But I know plenty of people who hunt as a part of their lifestyle, for learning valuable bush skills, being out in the land and providing for themselves. I can't make sense of people who want to label hunting as I know it as "sport"; if it has been the same way for tens of thousands of years, how is it sport?

Anyway all that aside the best way to defend hunters is education, pretty simple. Yet lacking in our society.

Thats exactly my point. You may decide your reasons for hunting are more valid than a trophy hunter but whatever the difference is it's very subtle and doesn't matter to either the game animal or animal rights activests so you are splitting hairs.

I hunt for sport as we all do. Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance so even if you eat what you shoot you are still hunting for sport because it would have been a lot cheaper, quicker and simpler to buy a duck or venison roast from the supermarket.

@Spudattack - agree with everything you have said.

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.][/QUOTE]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.

Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Thats exactly my point. You may decide your reasons for hunting are more valid than a trophy hunter but whatever the difference is it's very subtle and doesn't matter to either the game animal or animal rights activests so you are splitting hairs.

I hunt for sport as we all do. Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance so even if you eat what you shoot you are still hunting for sport because it would have been a lot cheaper, quicker and simpler to buy a duck or venison roast from the supermarket.

@Spudattack - agree with everything you have said.

+1

Each to their own. To the other side we are all the same. The fact that the wild hunted animal has less stress than the farm animal completely escapes them, provided they are not veges as well.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.[/QUOTE]

Code of ethics APHA: Welcome to Apha Website
not sure about zphga rules.
I did a few years guiding in Europe and North Africa (private properties) I have seen a couple of interesting people. Some clients didn't wanted to pay after their animal have been secured by my colleges. In most cases its up to the PH if he want to interact or not, in most you can see straight away if a followup shot is needed. Hunting big game especially something from the big five they should have secured the animal much sooner. But I haven't been there so not sure what happened exactly.

About this lady: sorry but she must be a resident of a different planet. For a second I felt like am back in the UK. Guys from there must be pretty familiar whit this.
I should write an article about cruel and sadistic teachers

Good creeping and lurking in the shadows for everyone!

BF

Originally Posted by gsp follower

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.[/QUOTE]

Yep, another point is that it has not been proven that either Palmer or the Ph actually did anything illegal on this hunt, only allegations all made by the anti hunting crowd.

Aside from stuffing up the shot and the ph failing to finish it off immediately (again, we do not know the exact circumstances here) it is not clear than they did anything wrong, unethical perhaps, but also still to be proven.

To condemn them without knowing all the facts would be foolish.

But fully agree, should it be found that they acted illegally I have no issue with the full force of what little law Zimbabwe has to be thrown at them!

Nah his condemnation isn't justified on the basis of what we know that he did, nor is it ever justified to participate in trial by media ever.... leave that to the emotionally underdeveloped...

To scapegoat this guy, just to avoid association might be convenient ... but it just makes us exactly the same as the other people doing the same thing.

Personally I have no interest in any form of canned/guided hunting, nor predator hunting nor giraffe/elephant/rhino. But I'm not ignorant enough to insist that my personal values should apply across the board, unlike the numbies on the other side of this issue..

Trophy hunting might be harder to rationalise to the civilised uninformed, but it makes the most sense for african wildlife management. There is no place for meat hunting as a foreign exchange earner for those economies.

The dumb money in this debate is too dumb to understand the issues.

It's a very interesting debate I reckon. Congrats to all who've posted their honest opinions and not just kept up the company line / tired old clichés. Those who hunt know that it activates a higher state of awareness that you're never going to be able to explain to a school teacher of all people. Just try explaining to them how cruel 'nz standards' are to their 5 year old students. They just don't get it.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Nah his condemnation isn't justified on the basis of what we know that he did, nor is it ever justified to participate in trial by media ever.... leave that to the emotionally underdeveloped...

To scapegoat this guy, just to avoid association might be convenient ... but it just makes us exactly the same as the other people doing the same thing.

Personally I have no interest in any form of canned/guided hunting, nor predator hunting nor giraffe/elephant/rhino. But I'm not ignorant enough to insist that my personal values should apply across the board, unlike the numbies on the other side of this issue..

Trophy hunting might be harder to rationalise to the civilised uninformed, but it makes the most sense for african wildlife management. There is no place for meat hunting as a foreign exchange earner for those economies.

The dumb money in this debate is too dumb to understand the issues.

I agree. My issue is that it is commercialised hunting that most often puts a magnifying glass on every one that is captured under the banner of "hunting". Ill considered (perhaps irresponsible) exploit photo's, equipment and service advertising on easily accessible public pages my greatest concern.

if sandra kyle thinks that our sport is cruel and barbaric then i suggest that she should watch blood brothers, its about male lions killing each other to take over the pride, if you haven;t watched keep an eye out on discovery channel

Originally Posted by pope2506

if sandra kyle thinks that our sport is cruel and barbaric then i suggest that she should watch blood brothers, its about male lions killing each other to take over the pride, if you haven;t watched keep an eye out on discovery channel

I've seen that, and that is brutal and made me cringe when they would bite into a male lions rear legs and basically disable it from moving.

I dont think you can win this argument with the vocal minority. Hunters == bad, end of story for them. I dont hunt and my wife is a vegan but own guns so I get it in the neck many days of the week, LOL from her vegan friends. There is no logic to it, simple, much fear, even loathing it isnt sane, logical or fair. Indeed many are deluded, sick and need medical help IMHO and these are the ppl we are fighting. And I do mean fighting (in a democratic sense) as they want to take this way of life from us and they are winning. Huge worry for me is that when the Green's get in their lobbyists like AA who are organised behind them will push for semi-auto bans just to start with, meanwhile us shooters are not supporting each others discipline and indeed COLFO our one high level organisation in NZ we have. eg Small bore ppl dont think they will ever be impacted so steer clear of support and advocating. On the other side is lack of competition for gun supplies and consumables, prices are held artificially high here which is discouraging gun ownership and use.

Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance 8><---

Interestingly I came across a hunter the other day who is un-employed and hunts to put decent quality meat, venison/rabbit etc on his family's table, so I'll disagree with you here.

I believe in the rights of everybody in whatever they chose to do, as long as its legal. I have no desire to hunt Big Game animals, but the food chain animals, pests, meat animals I personally have no problem with. I'm older and don't personally understand the desire to shoot an Elephant, Lion,Polar Bear or a giraffe,etc, but if its legal and that's what your into,while I may not agree, I'm not going to get upset.
But I apply this across everything, fast cars, motor bikes,fuck'n jet skis!! your sex life, number of kids, what you earn etc etc.
There's many worse illegal things going on in the world, That's why I believe in the death sentence, why I didnt cry when two Aussies got put down for drug smuggling, the world needs to harden up in certain areas, before picking on legal pursuits. just my opinion

Daryll was on Seven Sharp last night.

Trophy hunting: Gross to most of us but does the hate storm make an impact? - TV News Video | TVNZ