Thread: Farmer lying about paper road?

Only the local council (to the property) can make a definitive call.
Do not email the council but write to their roading dept and your letter will be opened by the office letter openers and recorded in the system with a time frame for reply and cannot be ignored
Explain that you wish to have clarification on the legal status of the road.
Once you have that you can follow up to the writer with an email explaining that you wish to use the road but that it is blocked with a fence etc.
I am quite sure that a second approach to the farmer with clarification of the legal position for both parties will result in a compromise

Originally Posted by norsk

No your being a wanker.

Its a bit like me parking my Dozer across your driveway and saying " you dont need to use that public road when you can just drive acrosd your paddocks".

Righto mate. You've obviously never come home to find someone having a shit in your daffodils. Who pays for the track to be repaired when we get 200mm of rain and the culverts wash out and slips block access. Not the fucking council. When they start stumping up the cash for maintenance, then it can be used by anyone. 95% of the people wanting to use the paper road wouldn't cause an issue, but it's the 5% of entitled wankers that think that because it's a paper road they can go up there and do whatever the fuck they want and cause absolute havoc that ruin it for everyone else.

Originally Posted by hdc

Righto mate. You've obviously never come home to find someone having a shit in your daffodils. Who pays for the track to be repaired when we get 200mm of rain and the culverts wash out and slips block access. Not the fucking council. When they start stumping up the cash for maintenance, then it can be used by anyone. 95% of the people wanting to use the paper road wouldn't cause an issue, but it's the 5% of entitled wankers that think that because it's a paper road they can go up there and do whatever the fuck they want and cause absolute havoc that ruin it for everyone else.

They have a right to use it.
You dont have a right to stop them.

I take it you get to use the track for free though? How many 4x4s go up and down it compared to your farm wagons?

Originally Posted by hdc

Righto mate. You've obviously never come home to find someone having a shit in your daffodils. Who pays for the track to be repaired when we get 200mm of rain and the culverts wash out and slips block access. Not the fucking council. When they start stumping up the cash for maintenance, then it can be used by anyone. 95% of the people wanting to use the paper road wouldn't cause an issue, but it's the 5% of entitled wankers that think that because it's a paper road they can go up there and do whatever the fuck they want and cause absolute havoc that ruin it for everyone else.

I completely understand your point and angst as we have been in that situation on a different property ourselves, however the unformed legal road ( there is no such thing as a paper road ) is not yours no matter how much work you have done to develop it. It belongs to the crown and is under the administration of the local council on the crowns behalf.

Originally Posted by hdc

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but here it goes. I reckon the farmer is well within his moral (although perhaps not legal) rights. We have a paper road running straight up the guts of our family farm straight past the woolshed and yards and once you let one person through, you let them all through. We have had poachers up there dumb enough to posts photos of themselves on our placeon facebook, 4wd'ers ripping through stock and leaving gates open letting stock loose. It is a real pain in the arse. It may be legal access on paper, but it is not always practical access.

Agree 100%. Find somewhere else to hunt. It’s not like there will be a shortage of game animals in Canterbury at present. I’ve had similar issues with whitebaiters during lambing. Just thinking they can claim queens chain and wander where they like. They came off second best.
Some of the critters I have bumped into in the hills - it’s little wonder land owners do t want them on their property near their stock.

Not ideal granted. Some old fashioned values sometimes go a long way. Like fronting up dressed appropriately and asking for permission using manners. Sadly common sense is not so common anymore.

Originally Posted by hdc

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but here it goes. I reckon the farmer is well within his moral (although perhaps not legal) rights. We have a paper road running straight up the guts of our family farm straight past the woolshed and yards and once you let one person through, you let them all through. We have had poachers up there dumb enough to posts photos of themselves on our placeon facebook, 4wd'ers ripping through stock and leaving gates open letting stock loose. It is a real pain in the arse. It may be legal access on paper, but it is not always practical access.

Is your paper road the only legal access to a doc block? If not then it's not the same IMO and I somewhat agree with you.

If it is why should a few shit cunts mean that you write off everyone? As a hunter/firearms owner I'm sure you don't like being put in the same camp as people like the Christchurch shooter or as a farmer being chucked in the same ranks as some of the few that are genuinely mistreating their animals. IMHO if you expect to be judged as an individual then you should be so for others. I completely understand its easier to just say no but most people if they genuinely consider the request would be able. To judge whether the person is going to be a problem/ isn't it better to know the person is going to be coming through and is going to give you heads up so you can keep him away from anything you need to rather than him just showing up and exercising their legal right.

We on a monthly basis get approached by pig hunters etc for access. Mostly we say no because it's private land only and we like to chase pigs but if they seem responsible and have kids for example we offer up shooting small game etc. We also allow access to a shit load of people as we have a area to launch boats into the lake and ask they call first and sign in and out at the gate. We have had issues but we just trespass those individuals and the other people who use the access actually are the ones that caught the troublemakers and reported them to us.

To clarify to everyone this legal access is 100% walkable and is doable. I'm aware some go through some nasty unwalkable stuff but this doesn't.

Offer to help them out on the farm for a day. If they still think you’re a dick at the end of the day at least they’ll know which dick is walking across the back of their place. Still let them know when you’ll be doing it. Might end up being a case of better the devil you know for them.

By the way I’m not saying you’re a dick.


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Originally Posted by hdc

I realize this will wind some people right up, but I am coming at this from the perspective of the farmer, rather than the person wanting to go up the public road. All they are trying to do is make a living off the land, and there is nothing worse than having to try and shed off ewes and lambs in the paddock because some idiot has gone for a wander up the paper road and left the gates open, boxing up the mobs. When people head up the paper road in their little Skoda hatchbacks because the GPS said they could go that way, and you have to tow them out of a bog you wouldn't even drive the hilux through, it starts to annoy. I realize that legally you may have the right to go up there, but that doesn't mean you always should. You know the saying, once bitten twice shy. That is how most farmers feel about public access, after a few fuckwits ruin it for everyone else.

One that's not paper roads Google maps automatically detects races etc and adds them to its data base. It's not really related to paper roads. Plus the stations down here have that solves they charge you $500-$1000 for recovery of the vehicle. This paper road does not actually follow any track its follows a ridgeline and would require jumping fences which is partially why I called and I was trying to avoid damaging fences as my biggest peeve I see guys do on our place its climbing the fence and stretching wires/pulling staples or climbing a swung gate at the end aways from the hinges.

You act like your the only farmers here. I also come from a farm and understand the point of veiw but morally I believe its wrong to try block legal access to public land. They could for example say use our track to keep you away from stock and pay $20 for track maintenance with the requirement that you give us a weeks notice or the such. But trying to block legal access all together is wrong. Pretty simple to set aside a parking area and setup a camera which would allow you to record all those using the access plus you should have a record of those that rang. Is it inconvenient sure is it so inconvenient that it's over weighs the rights of the public to access public land nope especially usually if you make rules then people just accept them.

Originally Posted by yerimaginaryM8

Whoa I am not a farmer but I m definitely with hdc on this one. I know several farmers who have tracks running through their property that enable access to public DOC land and the shit they have to put up with is deplorable. Shit-heads damaging private property ruining it for others is a constant for some of those guys. Others have to constantly field phone calls from people wanting access and keep tabs on who is going out there organise keys health and safety sign in/sign etc and they are often dragged into it when accidents/breakdowns/stucks occur. Yet these farmers if you don't dick them around are generally excellent to deal with.

Most of us probably know of a few places we'd like to get access to but we have been refused. Some of us have had yo yo-ing access to places over the years dependant upon who is managing/owning the place at any given time. If access is refused I just move on -access is never a given even to certain parts of DOC land and for private land it changes over time. When you strike an impasse if DOC can't give you a solid legal access option it's best just to move on and try somewhere else. The angst and hassle isn't worth it you are better off investing your effort elsewhere and focussing on the positive opportunities rather than grinding your teeth.-

I'm not talking a farmer with tracks I'm talking a farmer with a legal paper road (land he does not own nor does he pay taxes on).

I haven't dicked this farmer around it would have taken him a max of 5 minutes total (which he could respond to at any 5 minutes he saw fit/had time) for our email exchange where I wrote clearly and concisely and told him my intentions in the form of actually asking his permission to use a legal access way which I don't need to do. It's mint public land and I know for a fact from a guy that flew in its some of the best hunting for a long way around.

And you are wrong about access not being a given. That's what 90% of paper road we're created for to ensure all the public land in NZ always had a legal access.

Originally Posted by erniec

Taupo Deer Stalkers battled for years over Poronui now it doesn't seem to be an issue to make it work.

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No, there's a big fuck off remote control steel gate 3m high right across the legal right of way. Well several years ago it was a legal right of way. Just looked it up now, and its been changed. Finishes at the steel gate. Skirts around through farmland now. Was there last week and certainly would involve climbing over multiple deer fences etc etc to follow the purple line.
You can see that they have managed to have the paper road changed (foreign owner, bottomless pockets I suggest), as several km down the road, there are the remains of actual roads in purple that service a couple of houses on the property.

Bottom line. People who buy properties with paper roads through them know this when they buy them. Its all in the LIM. Property will also be in diffferent titles, as they can't 'own' the paper road.

Originally Posted by hdc

Righto mate. You've obviously never come home to find someone having a shit in your daffodils. Who pays for the track to be repaired when we get 200mm of rain and the culverts wash out and slips block access. Not the fucking council. When they start stumping up the cash for maintenance, then it can be used by anyone. 95% of the people wanting to use the paper road wouldn't cause an issue, but it's the 5% of entitled wankers that think that because it's a paper road they can go up there and do whatever the fuck they want and cause absolute havoc that ruin it for everyone else.

There is no track mate there and I am not "entitled" I am entitled as are your and everyother new zealander. Id argue this particular cocky is entitled that they in the last 3 years bulldozed a new track that literally runs through all the tops country in the public land with little turn around bays that are clearly for glassing the block with fat lazy paid hunters. If they want it as private land they can pay for it. I will be enquiring with DOC about the legality of this as I understand needing to run a farm etc but what gives them the right to bulldoze new tracks on public land and treat it like a game park? I'd said that's very much "entitled"

Originally Posted by Nathan F

Agree 100%. Find somewhere else to hunt. It’s not like there will be a shortage of game animals in Canterbury at present. I’ve had similar issues with whitebaiters during lambing. Just thinking they can claim queens chain and wander where they like. They came off second best.
Some of the critters I have bumped into in the hills - it’s little wonder land owners do t want them on their property near their stock.

Not ideal granted. Some old fashioned values sometimes go a long way. Like fronting up dressed appropriately and asking for permission using manners. Sadly common sense is not so common anymore.

There's other reasons I'd like to hunt this area that can't be mentioned as it would likely give away the location. Let's just say it has some unique public land hunting opportunities for the general area. There is actually a stream river that accesses this from the other side with Queenschain however I would prefer use the legal road (which for all intensive purposes has no road/track or such).

Unfortunately nowadays some people don't give a seconds thought to access regardless of whether or not the person is dressed nicely, bringing beers, offering help etc.

Originally Posted by HOO

Offer to help them out on the farm for a day. If they still think you’re a dick at the end of the day at least they’ll know which dick is walking across the back of their place. Still let them know when you’ll be doing it. Might end up being a case of better the devil you know for them.

By the way I’m not saying you’re a dick.


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I have already offered this but coming from a farm where this was offered the offer of help doesn't really work as a new guys that's got no experience take more effort to sort out that he's worth. Often a new worker cost your time the few few days to sort him out and organise them. Plus I'm not asking for private access it was more of a way of letting him know I would be coming and giving him a chance to offer up the use of his track to save me jumping his fences. Wandering aimlessly around his house (paper road runs 50m from his main house) /if he needs to keep me away from any stock or wants to set out any other rules so I gain easier access and not having to stress about sticking to a GPS trail and he gains not having some unknown wandering through "his farm" potentially having no choice but to access through paddocks with stock etc and can dictate the route etc.

@Stocky

I was involved in several lengthy battles about paper road access with landowners. This was not hunting related, it was minerals exploration on public land requiring logistical support and - for safety planning - means of access / egress should helicopters not be possible. My role was to negotiate legal access agreements with the landowners.

The only worthwhile advice I can give you is:

DOC are absolutely hopeless on this issue and don’t want a bar of it, most of the regional employees in the local office will avoid this argument like the plague. Most council employees we dealt with on this issue were equally useless. My experience working with DOC and council on this left me with a lifelong cynicism towards these public “servants”. However every now and again you do come across a good bastard, finding him or her is the difficult part.

Forcing the issue with the landowner requires Legal representation which should in all honesty be unnecessary. The existing precedent around the country is messy. Unless you are an international mining conglomerate (or similar) this is a very expensive and frustrating process. Sometimes it is enough to appear at the front door so lawyered up that your corner of the ring is clearly going to be far too tough to fight, and the landowner gives up before any dollars are spent. But other times the landowner will simply ignore you, knowing that your schedule of work is sufficiently urgent for you to probably find another way of doing something that doesn’t involve his land.

Some landowners can get really nasty. I have hands on experience of one particular family deliberately damaging vehicles and plant after one company (in extraneous circumstances) made the decision to go ahead and use farm tracks regardless of how landowners felt about it. You would be amazed how difficult it is to secure a prosecution in the circumstances, when everyone knows who did it, and here you have a case of equally disinterested Police, as well as DOC, and the council.

It’s an infernally annoying and long-standing issue in New Zealand and something that I wish could be sorted out once and for all.

I have found that by far the best approach is face-to-face, with a resolute determination not to lose your shit if you are provoked. With what you’ve told us so far of your background and experience I would say a face-to-face would be a worthwhile next step.

[QUOTE=zimmer;1245672]

Originally Posted by Sarvo

There must be more to the story than that?
Before getting to the court stage a tresspass notice must be issued, either verbally or in writing. But of course if they weren't actually on his land......

Yes they were served with Trespass notice
But Court day - prosecution dropped the case