Thread: Half cock or safety

Looking at the answers from the different members on this post, it is interesting that each individual way of treating the problem might be linked to their location and the type of environment they hunt in. Hunting the kaimai is widely different to hunting the plains of Canterbury …

Originally Posted by Friwi

Looking at the answers from the different members on this post, it is interesting that each individual way of treating the problem might be linked to their location and the type of environment they hunt in. Hunting the kaimai is widely different to hunting the plains of Canterbury …

It also seems to be a certain age demographic that prefer "half open" (or whatever you want to call it) to a specifically designed safety system.

Originally Posted by Friwi

Looking at the answers from the different members on this post, it is interesting that each individual way of treating the problem might be linked to their location and the type of environment they hunt in. Hunting the kaimai is widely different to hunting the plains of Canterbury …

ya bang on Friwi bush hunting Te Urewera we always used half cock - deer could be encountered at any time - if I was doing a whole series of river crossings then empty chamber - I never use the safety - maybe if I had a winchester type safety that positively locks firing pin I might

With all this cold weather at the moment Im using the half cock method...

Modern rifle , 100% the safety. A well known / respected Tauranga gunsmith said to me if they ( safety's ) didn't work the likes of Remington, Winchester , Savage would be sued out of business.
Makes sense to me , running an empty chamber until a round is needed makes sense also depending on what type of country you hunt.

Not all safeties are created equal. For example, my rifle has a lever that has been knocked into the fire position in thick scrub, whereas other rifles have a button that slides forward. The latter is a lot harder to bump off. Then there are the ones that allow you to unload without deactivating the mechanism. These, if in button form are best. But even better is the empty chamber with bolt locked and closed.
For me, when stalking slow I have one up the spout, safety on but bolt unlocked and half open. Then there's a 2 stage process to close the bolt and take the safety off. Is it the best of both worlds?

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

Originally Posted by Eat Meater

Not all safeties are created equal. For example, my rifle has a lever that has been knocked into the fire position in thick scrub, whereas other rifles have a button that slides forward. The latter is a lot harder to bump off. Then there are the ones that allow you to unload without deactivating the mechanism. These, if in button form are best. But even better is the empty chamber with bolt locked and closed.
For me, when stalking slow I have one up the spout, safety on but bolt unlocked and half open. Then there's a 2 stage process to close the bolt and take the safety off. Is it the best of both worlds?

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

That is actually how I like to run things, in the olden days when I did the MSC course, I was taught the half-open-bolt methodology, at that time, Lee Enfields were still fairly prolific but were in popularity decline.
My partner did her MSC course in late 2018, I went along too, so that I could make sure I didn't contradict any of what they taught in the event the teaching had changed. The main difference to the course I did in the 90's was the change to teaching to use the safety catch rather than half-open bolt. The instructor did explain that there used to be a different way that they taught, but that for the sake of consistency and simplicity, safety catch was now seen as the best practice to observe.

As some on here have touched on, I also struggle to change old habits, but I can form new ones. So as per the quoted post above, I now observe both teachings. Half-open-bolt and safety on. But crucially, if in doubt, nothing up the spout.

The ONE THING we all take away from discussion like this is a little more awareness of what we do and why.that just HAS to be a good thing as we more aware of it's possible failings. Stay safe out there folks

Well at least we have moved away from what was a shocker of a practise I often saw used 40 years ago...bolt closed with trigger held back so the fireing pin was sitting on primer.....I know of one fella who dropped his 8mm mauser carried in this manner,it went down bank(assumably he was hanging on to stop himself falling) rifle struck rocks or some such,it fired and round went up through his hand arm and shoulder,luckily deflecting outwards rather than inwards removing his head....

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Well at least we have moved away from what was a shocker of a practise I often saw used 40 years ago...bolt closed with trigger held back so the fireing pin was sitting on primer.....I know of one fella who dropped his 8mm mauser carried in this manner,it went down bank(assumably he was hanging on to stop himself falling) rifle struck rocks or some such,it fired and round went up through his hand arm and shoulder,luckily deflecting outwards rather than inwards removing his head....

Less dramatic but a chap I hunted with ( many years ago) used to carry his 303 with one up the spout and the bolt closed in the fired position, he claimed it was safe (“see, you can pull the trigger and it won’t go off”) and all he had to do was pull the cocking piece back when he saw a deer.

Told him to empty his magazine and give me all the bullets from it and I’d show him which ones had been up the spout.

Showed him two bullets with noticeable ‘dings’ in the primers and told him both would have been up the spout at some stage with the firing pin resting on the primer and all it would take to fire the rifle would be dropping the rifle on its butt or smacking the cocking piece on a rock when he slipped and fell.

He didn’t use his ‘safe’ method after that.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Well at least we have moved away from what was a shocker of a practise I often saw used 40 years ago...bolt closed with trigger held back so the fireing pin was sitting on primer.....I know of one fella who dropped his 8mm mauser carried in this manner,it went down bank(assumably he was hanging on to stop himself falling) rifle struck rocks or some such,it fired and round went up through his hand arm and shoulder,luckily deflecting outwards rather than inwards removing his head....

This scenario is the reason for my aversion to the interchangeable usage of the term between true 'half-cock' and 'half-open-bolt'.
On the Lee Enfield and most early 20th century military bolt action designs you can ease the striker forward under spring tension into a half-cock position. This has the striker off the primer and locked, there is a risk when easing the striker forward of slipping and the firearm discharging, there is also the risk of letting the striker all the way forward and resting on the primer while hunting.

When hunting with one of these rifles, using a half-open-bolt with a cock-on-closing mechanism is arguably safer than relying on the half-cock design feature incorporated in the striker of many of these rifles, as has been already mentioned, this is the initiator of our ostensibly unique practice in NZ, which started when a stalking rifle that was not a Lee Enfield was a discussion point.

Getting back on point, if someone with one of these rifles takes the advice to use half-cock literally, which is not the half-open-bolt scenario, then there is an exposed striker resting or ready to drop on a primer. All it takes is a knock to the rifle and discharge can occur.
The correct semantics around this could save a life.

Ultimately the thing to realise is that this is a far more nuanced subject than what some posts would seem to suggest. Saying that no modern maker would make a sub 100% reliable safety because that would bankrupt them, ignores the Remington trigger recall of recent years (Yes I know there is conjecture whether it was the safety or the operators, however the scenario debunks the claim regardless).

Originally Posted by longshot

This scenario is the reason for my aversion to the interchangeable usage of the term between true 'half-cock' and 'half-open-bolt'.
On the Lee Enfield and most early 20th century military bolt action designs you can ease the striker forward under spring tension into a half-cock position. This has the striker off the primer and locked, there is a risk when easing the striker forward of slipping and the firearm discharging, there is also the risk of letting the striker all the way forward and resting on the primer while hunting.

When hunting with one of these rifles, using a half-open-bolt with a cock-on-closing mechanism is arguably safer than relying on the half-cock design feature incorporated in the striker of many of these rifles, as has been already mentioned, this is the initiator of our ostensibly unique practice in NZ, which started when a stalking rifle that was not a Lee Enfield was a discussion point.

Getting back on point, if someone with one of these rifles takes the advice to use half-cock literally, which is not the half-open-bolt scenario, then there is an exposed striker resting or ready to drop on a primer. All it takes is a knock to the rifle and discharge can occur.
The correct semantics around this could save a life.

Ultimately the thing to realise is that this is a far more nuanced subject than what some posts would seem to suggest. Saying that no modern maker would make a sub 100% reliable safety because that would bankrupt them, ignores the Remington trigger recall of recent years (Yes I know there is conjecture whether it was the safety or the operators, however the scenario debunks the claim regardless).

One interesting point on the Lee Enfield design, during both wars they started making simplified cocking pieces to get more rifles out the door. These didn't have the half-cock safety notch, finger grooves among other deleted features. These were supposed to have been all removed after both wars for the 'pattern' version but I've seen two of them. So the blanket practice possibly won't work on every LE as well - just to really chuck the can opener at the worms.

The best action in this regard for safety is the military M98 and similar which has a 3-position 'flag' safety on the back of the bolt. Fire, Safe (bolt opening), Safe (bolt locked). The safety catch is a chunk of steel that cams the firing pin back off the sear so unless you physically hold the trigger back while releasing the safety (and if you are going to do that I'm convinced there's no helping you) the firing pin physically cannot go forwards with the safety engaged and if everything is as-built it cannot fire on safety release (and if it did it would likely slam fire on closing the bolt into battery first).

The way I see it there is no perfectly safe scenario once a round is in the chamber. In the old days using a mauser 98 actioned rifle I always used the 1/2 cock system, I liked it because at a glance it was obvious to me or to a hunting companion that the rifle was not able to be fired, the 1/2 cock on the 98 mauser is excellent. However I do recall a couple of occasions when hunting thick bush the bolt got closed by a piece of scrub hitting the bolt handle, the only good thing in this case is that it is visibly obvious the moment it happens. The type of hunting I was doing in thicker bush meant that hunting with an empty chamber was not really a viable option.
The modern safeties once applied are pretty foolproof, however it is nowhere near as obvious that the safety is actually on. There is a definite possibility that the safety could be moved from safe to fire simply by brushing against a pack strap, Some rifle brands (safety designs are prone to this than others). I see neither system as being foolproof.

why has no one mentioned the push feed actions not latching onto cartridge rim until bolt is full closed, many have been caught out when clearing a push feed style action and round is still up the spout.
M77 3 position safeties imo is about as good as them come.

Originally Posted by Stump

why has no one mentioned the push feed actions not latching onto cartridge rim until bolt is full closed, many have been caught out when clearing a push feed style action and round is still up the spout.
M77 3 position safeties imo is about as good as them come.

@Stump read the thread again. I got you mate