Thread: Half cock or safety

Originally Posted by Stump

why has no one mentioned the push feed actions not latching onto cartridge rim until bolt is full closed, many have been caught out when clearing a push feed style action and round is still up the spout.
M77 3 position safeties imo is about as good as them come.

I know of a gun shop manager getting caught out in a somewhat similar
manner.
Customer brought in rifle saying his bolt had a problem, had bolt in one hand and rifle in the other.
Manager got hold of both items, checked mag was empty, put bolt back in rifle and worked the bolt several times then closed it and pulled the trigger-BANG!

Bullet through roof.
Customer said “I forgot to say it doesn’t extract, that’s the problem”

Manager now does pinkie up the chamber first thing when firearm is brought into gun shop.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Well at least we have moved away from what was a shocker of a practise I often saw used 40 years ago...bolt closed with trigger held back so the fireing pin was sitting on primer.....I know of one fella who dropped his 8mm mauser carried in this manner,it went down bank(assumably he was hanging on to stop himself falling) rifle struck rocks or some such,it fired and round went up through his hand arm and shoulder,luckily deflecting outwards rather than inwards removing his head....

This scenario is the reason for my aversion to the interchangeable usage of the term between true 'half-cock' and 'half-open-bolt'.
On the Lee Enfield and most early 20th century military bolt action designs you can ease the striker forward under spring tension into a half-cock position. This has the striker off the primer and locked, there is a risk when easing the striker forward of slipping and the firearm discharging, there is also the risk of letting the striker all the way forward and resting on the primer while hunting.

When hunting with one of these rifles, using a half-open-bolt with a cock-on-closing mechanism is arguably safer than relying on the half-cock design feature incorporated in the striker of many of these rifles, as has been already mentioned, this is the initiator of our ostensibly unique practice in NZ, which started when a stalking rifle that was not a Lee Enfield was a discussion point.

Getting back on point, if someone with one of these rifles takes the advice to use half-cock literally, which is not the half-open-bolt scenario, then there is an exposed striker resting or ready to drop on a primer. All it takes is a knock to the rifle and discharge can occur.
The correct semantics around this could save a life.

Ultimately the thing to realise is that this is a far more nuanced subject than what some posts would seem to suggest. Saying that no modern maker would make a sub 100% reliable safety because that would bankrupt them, ignores the Remington trigger recall of recent years (Yes I know there is conjecture whether it was the safety or the operators, however the scenario debunks the claim regardless).

Originally Posted by Eat Meater

Not all safeties are created equal. For example, my rifle has a lever that has been knocked into the fire position in thick scrub, whereas other rifles have a button that slides forward. The latter is a lot harder to bump off. Then there are the ones that allow you to unload without deactivating the mechanism. These, if in button form are best. But even better is the empty chamber with bolt locked and closed.
For me, when stalking slow I have one up the spout, safety on but bolt unlocked and half open. Then there's a 2 stage process to close the bolt and take the safety off. Is it the best of both worlds?

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

That is actually how I like to run things, in the olden days when I did the MSC course, I was taught the half-open-bolt methodology, at that time, Lee Enfields were still fairly prolific but were in popularity decline.
My partner did her MSC course in late 2018, I went along too, so that I could make sure I didn't contradict any of what they taught in the event the teaching had changed. The main difference to the course I did in the 90's was the change to teaching to use the safety catch rather than half-open bolt. The instructor did explain that there used to be a different way that they taught, but that for the sake of consistency and simplicity, safety catch was now seen as the best practice to observe.

As some on here have touched on, I also struggle to change old habits, but I can form new ones. So as per the quoted post above, I now observe both teachings. Half-open-bolt and safety on. But crucially, if in doubt, nothing up the spout.

Might not be the best but my method (when bush hunting) is:

Nothing in the spout while just moving through areas.
If I come across great sign or an area that I think potentially may hold animals I will put one in the spout and have the safety on.
I slow right down and hunt that area - if no luck - remove the round and back into the mag.
If the footing is poor or I think there's a chance I may slip while moving I remove the round.
I end up cycling the round in an out of the rifle a bunch during the day.

My chamber is always empty until i'm ready to shoot, the bolt in the gun with the firing pin "out" - so it can visibly be seen that the gun is not in a ready to fire state (Rem700)

Originally Posted by longshot

This scenario is the reason for my aversion to the interchangeable usage of the term between true 'half-cock' and 'half-open-bolt'.
On the Lee Enfield and most early 20th century military bolt action designs you can ease the striker forward under spring tension into a half-cock position. This has the striker off the primer and locked, there is a risk when easing the striker forward of slipping and the firearm discharging, there is also the risk of letting the striker all the way forward and resting on the primer while hunting.

When hunting with one of these rifles, using a half-open-bolt with a cock-on-closing mechanism is arguably safer than relying on the half-cock design feature incorporated in the striker of many of these rifles, as has been already mentioned, this is the initiator of our ostensibly unique practice in NZ, which started when a stalking rifle that was not a Lee Enfield was a discussion point.

Getting back on point, if someone with one of these rifles takes the advice to use half-cock literally, which is not the half-open-bolt scenario, then there is an exposed striker resting or ready to drop on a primer. All it takes is a knock to the rifle and discharge can occur.
The correct semantics around this could save a life.

Ultimately the thing to realise is that this is a far more nuanced subject than what some posts would seem to suggest. Saying that no modern maker would make a sub 100% reliable safety because that would bankrupt them, ignores the Remington trigger recall of recent years (Yes I know there is conjecture whether it was the safety or the operators, however the scenario debunks the claim regardless).

One interesting point on the Lee Enfield design, during both wars they started making simplified cocking pieces to get more rifles out the door. These didn't have the half-cock safety notch, finger grooves among other deleted features. These were supposed to have been all removed after both wars for the 'pattern' version but I've seen two of them. So the blanket practice possibly won't work on every LE as well - just to really chuck the can opener at the worms.

The best action in this regard for safety is the military M98 and similar which has a 3-position 'flag' safety on the back of the bolt. Fire, Safe (bolt opening), Safe (bolt locked). The safety catch is a chunk of steel that cams the firing pin back off the sear so unless you physically hold the trigger back while releasing the safety (and if you are going to do that I'm convinced there's no helping you) the firing pin physically cannot go forwards with the safety engaged and if everything is as-built it cannot fire on safety release (and if it did it would likely slam fire on closing the bolt into battery first).

Originally Posted by Stump

why has no one mentioned the push feed actions not latching onto cartridge rim until bolt is full closed, many have been caught out when clearing a push feed style action and round is still up the spout.
M77 3 position safeties imo is about as good as them come.

Very good point. This caught me out when I changed from using a Mauser 98 to a Tikka T3x, it only happened once and now I Close the bolt completely before going back to a 1/2 open position. Familiarity with the particular rifle you are using is very important.

Originally Posted by Stump

why has no one mentioned the push feed actions not latching onto cartridge rim until bolt is full closed, many have been caught out when clearing a push feed style action and round is still up the spout.
M77 3 position safeties imo is about as good as them come.

Got to page 3 of this thread wondering why no one else had mentioned this then saw this post. All 4 tikka's I own do this. Walking around with the bolt half closed is an accident waiting to happen. ( I dont mean on half cock, I mean with the bolt half closed....there is a difference!......)
My standard is , if more than one, lead has one in the chamber with safety on, all other hunters have an empty chamber. If hunting by myself, depending on the terrain its either bolt closed on an empty chamber or loaded with the safety on....

I have found however that the most foolproof method is to have the bolt in my pack, empty mag in one pocket, live rounds in another pocket and the rifle slung over my shoulder......the benefits are that the rifle is completely safe, both hands are free, and I get to see more deer in a shootable position at close range.......the deer I see under these circumstances are always grateful as they run away.

Goodness me, this one again...

I'll say what I said last time. After many years of what I called "half cock" which I accept could very well be "half open", I now operate with bolt fully closed and safety on. I had to change a lifetime's habit after I had one howa that would pop open constantly going click- clack, followed by another that would bump closed.

Regardless of method, I only have one up the spout when hunting alone AND expect to see a deer. Rifle will be unloaded at all other times.

Saw a guy turn a whiter shade of pale once, his service Beretta 92 was taken from him in a scuffle. He carried 15+1 with the safety engaged.

Originally Posted by outlander

Saw a guy turn a whiter shade of pale once, his service Beretta 92 was taken from him in a scuffle. He carried 15+1 with the safety engaged.

Reckon we're talking about deer hunting tho innit?

Some of you are still confusing half open bolt with half cock: they are 2 completely different scenarios.

A half open bolt is when the cartridge is half way into the chamber, so the bolt needs to be fully closed before the shot can be taken. If your trigger hand holds the pistol grip immediately behind the rear of the bolt, the bolt can't slide back and cause the round to drop out.

Re manufacturers not producing safety catches if they were faulty, I'm sure they all leave the factory in good working condition. But a safety catch is a mechanical device, and ANY mechanical device can fail or malfunction, through age, misuse, or wear.

Originally Posted by Ranger 888

....................................Re manufacturers not producing safety catches if they were faulty, I'm sure they all leave the factory in good working condition. But a safety catch is a mechanical device, and ANY mechanical device can fail or malfunction, through age, misuse, or wear.

Wow! Never thought of that............Just put 2 bricks in my new Jeep Cherokee so that when I park it on a hill and engage the hand brake, I can put them in front/behind the wheels.......

Even if safety systems failed over time they would get sued.

I regularly test the safety catch. It is rather easy to do. Although probably not needed.