Thread: Has 1080 by kill struck again

Originally Posted by Dundee

Why haven't the RSPCA fought for a prosecution? They do anything to get the average Joe Bloggs.

I guess you have to be careful taking on for example Department Of Conservation. Just using say Cave Creek as an example.

We all know a shoddy platform held together with skew nails was built and hung over a 40m drop. Consequently the structure failed and killed 14 and injured another 3.

This DOC structure was not designed by an engineer.

A Building Consent was never obtained.

It was found that a building consent was not even lodged.

And yet nobody was found to blame for this.
Joe Bloggs would have been hung out to dry no doubt about that, if he had have built the Cave Creek Platform. So I guess the inference here is Joe Bloggs is a slow moving target that attracts the bullet and Teflon D.O.C just slithers away as untouchable as ever.

It's all gotten too much for McCrook; the greatest poisoner in NZ. He's chucked it in and done a runner. Perhaps the Feds have finally woken up to how much they've been scammed and how ineffective their millions of dollars of levies have really been; and kicked up a stink at last. Most of the justification for spending on 1080 has been via the bTB mantra, but we all know dammed well that most of the problem has come from and is still coming from the back of the trucks and perpetuated by piss poor testing regimes.

The report commissioned by NZ Treasury which was authored by the NZ Institute of Economic research as far back as 2000 made clear that the program justification was doubtful. The report is titled "Coughing Up For TB" so if you Google it you can read the truth for yourselves; then sit down and wonder why the thing was allowed to continue a further 15 years , and on--

Oh never mind, we can pick on Rock Wrens and waterways instead---

It's about time John Key got hold of Nathan Guy and Smith and banged their heads together. Maggie wouldn't know squat and should be sent back to her garden show.
Alternatives to using 1080 have always existed. It is the misappropriation, misdirection and misuse of public funds that has prevented the expansion to realise the potential of the trapping industry and the several by product utilisation industries that devolve from that which could see the job done without the deleterious side effects and with productive job creation and social benefits.

I wasn't going to comment on all the 1080 stuff, I don't know enough about it all.
I do think its a good topic and enjoy reading everyone's point of view regardless of there view and find it a very relevant topic for a lot of New Zealanders.
One think I do know thou......I've been hunting in a 1080ed area and there were still deer there but no bird sound or anything just a silence, like a silence of death.
I also don't think spreading poison all over the country side is quite the right answer, it reminds me of having cancer (the pest) and treating it with chemo (1080), sure it does it's job ( if your lucky) but fuckin near kills you in the process and long term we will wait and see but she's no joy ride.

I'm sure it will all come out in the next 20 years like most things.

Well, here's a thought for y'all to ponder.

IMO.

The spread / application rate that the AHB / TB Free NZ and DoC commonly use places a lethal bait about every ten paces square. (1 bait is enough to kill 3 possums or about 20 dogs and a very large number of insectivorous birds)

No way is there a "pest" every ten paces in our forests, and certainly not in any of our waterways or drinking water supplies.

The intensity and complete coverage of our lands with this type of lethal poison in relation to the actual land occupied by, the number and the spread of so-called "pest" animals beggars rational and reasonable assumptions as to the intended "well-being outcomes" to our lands. Overkill potential is obscenely high. Protected (like kea)and desirable non protected species (like children, birds and dogs) are vulnerable because the poison AND the application method are not exclusively target specific.

You must ask yourselves this very serious question;-In light of the mass broadcasting of deadly poison in a non target specific way;-What and where is the actual main target of the poisoning; is it the so-called "pests" or is it your country, your water and YOUR environment?

The truth and the reality IS that the poison is by it's very concentration and spread, affecting ALL, not just a few within the environment and is a staggeringly irresponsible and criminal affront to man and nature.

There is no insuperable obstacle standing in the way of trapping-- except irrationality within government and the selfish creation and sustaining of inappropriate misdirected and inefficient bureaucracies.

Pest control in an "open" system is in-exact science before you even start.

To understand what can be achieved native ecosystem restoration and especially bird numbers, a much better example to look at would be any of the fenced sanctuaries (Zealandia, Orokonui, Maungatuatari) or many of the off-shore conservation islands.

Just before he passed away, Sir Paul Calaghan delivered a very interesting lecture on using the fenced sanctuary concept to create a chain of ecosystem reservoirs, surrounded by buffer zones. You'd still need to use something like sodium fluoroacetate for the initial pest eradication, and depending on monitoring use that or another poison for annual pest control, but most likely at significantly reduced levels.

I do not see dumping tons of poison into the environment as viable long term solution.

Maungatautiri is a failure and a massive and very unpopular burden on Waikato Regional ratepayers who have been forced unwillingly to bail it out several times now.

Zealandia is also a failure and famous for it's poisoning of trout by use of Rotenone placed into the streams. Incidentally some of the green extremists want to see Rotenone (derris dust0 used in waterways emanating from national parks in order to eradicate those pesty trout.

I cannot comment on Orokonui an=s I don't know it.

Shakespeare park in Auckland is another example, but rats are reinfesting by swimming around the fence. Ulva island is another example of a place where trapping was successful but not maintained so a great excuse for DoC to pour brodifacoum onto the place. IMO to create a precedent leading to intended complete poisoning of Stewart island. Rats are still swimming to Ulva island.

Sanctuaries are a reasonable step off starting block but trapping and or target specific well maintained bait /trap stations can be effective for possums, mustelids and rats, mice. This has been proven long term (18 years) in Northern Urewera.

Woody, those are some pretty harsh comments about the sanctuaries.

In what way do you think they are failures ? Financial, but then show me any conservation effort that is not a drain on the taxpayer...

Ecosystem restoration wise and species numbers wise, I would be interested to hear your argument if you think they are failures....

Certainly the debate will vary depending on the parameters being included /excluded / discussed. When I say failure I am speaking in very broad terms and fiscal balances are high on my personal list of priorities. Different sections of communities and ethnic groups will always have varying priorities. The concept of sanctuary is good, and the concept of expanding a managed environment is good. However there is going to be a trade off between isolation by fencing, and management in practical terms in a wider environment. The former is proving very expensive and far from meeting design expectations while the latter is being almost totally ignored in terms other than mass aerial poisoning.


Be good to sit down over a crock of beer and a cooking fire to have an amicable discussion about it all sometime

Maungatautiri...33 million dollars of wasted effort. Rats and stoats penetrated the enclosure 2 years ago finally forcing the removal of native species released since the massive brodifacoum drops over the years.

A small portion of this amount could have been used to station two permanent Trappers/Gamekeepers on the mountain.
This would have changed the pest/native balance for the good. The rest could have been used to set up the same in many other reserves all over NZ

Fencing a mountain like Maungatautiri is ineffectual as nature is all too powerful. Floods, landslides, washouts, falling trees take their toll on the fence and as we know nature abhors a vacuum. All that stands between the remnants of the original well poisoned native bird population and a few imports is a few strands of rusting Chinese netting.

Interesting it is that two airdrops went astray and fell among sheep and cattle requiring herds and flocks to be destroyed and the farmers to be compensated.

The odd morepork has been seen on the Mountain recently after their numbers were greatly reduced by aerial dropped poisons.
Such was the excitement of the birds return that a camera was set up to record the nesting event. Guess what the camera recorded??? a morepork flying into the enclosure with a live rat which it let go for its chicks to catch. The camera also recorded the fact that the rat escaped the attention of the morepork chicks and is now looking for a mate. Nature is a powerful adversary far too powerful for the schemes and machinations of a bunch shiny arsed desk bandits ego tripping on the publics purse.

Evidence is out that the material used in the construction of the enclosure was shoddy and is rusting out, making more penetrations from pests possible and there is a strong possibility that the fence will have to be replaced. Oh dear more ratepayer expense for what is already proved itself a great white elephant. Even farmers have stopped access to the fence and its early warning system until such messy problems as IWI joint Governence issues under a recent Treaty Settlement are cleaned up.

In the Conservation Field as a soakhole for money it has no equal in NZ. When I last went there entry was free but the mountain was still suffering the silence of a well poisoned forest. Now you have to pay, for what, I don't know.

About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.

Originally Posted by Woody

About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.

They have tried for many years but trappers never had a level playing field. The Govt Departments never wanted them in their Forests and so tilted the ground in favour of the use of 1080/brodifacoum at every opportunity.

The Govt killed off the wild venison exports for the same reason.

Graeme, fenced sanctuaries are not caged zoos, they need to be open at the top to allow birds to come and go... Sometimes a tree falls on the fence, sometimes a bird brings in a pest animal, all of those factors are part and parcel of managing and running a fenced sanctuary.

The one that I am involved with has an annual program of pest control (mainly mice) using bait stations. Also constant monitoring using tracking tunnels etc to ensure that any pests are identified as soon as possible.

From first hand experience, I can tell you that the most surprising thing for me has been the regeneration of the native forrest. Increases in bird numbers is something you'd expect. 600% plus increases in Tui numbers, Kaka numbers increasing rapidly and some of the birds banded here being captured as far as Mt Bruce.

Have not visited Maungatautari yet, scaling the fenced sanctuary concept is something that may or may not work. Orokonui is similar to Karori in size.

I think sanctuaries like these give us tremendous opportunities to compare different pest control methods against each other in a more controlled environment, and also to build on the practical knowledge of what is required for more focused conservation efforts in future. It is also a very good test bed for ironing out partnerships with volunteers and other stakeholders. At any point in time, there are around half a dozen masters and phd students doing research, including the trial of rotenone in running water mentioned earlier (also being used in the western cape in South Africa btw). One of the current projects is to see if robins have the ability to count

Then add onto that the thousands of visitors who get to see very rare species such as takahe, saddleback, tuatara etc, I see quite a lot of positives where others see failures....

As a ratepayer I payed unwillingly for this..
In Maungatautari I saw a so called sanctuary that had used up so much of the available money that little was left for other more useful projects like the Te Urewera Mainland Island Project.

I saw a very expensive excluder fence that did not exclude pests. (note the mouse plague in the sanctuary this summer that makes a mockery of any science projects concerning biodiversity}

We wanted to see how well the liberated Kaka were making out. We were shown a single kaka in a small escape proof enclosure inside the sanctuary it seems the rest had taken one look at the place and shot through. Quite wisely we thought with the amount of poison used around the area.

The kiwi were grossly underweight when weighted at the end of the year. Not surprising again with the amount of pesticides used over the years.

And the silence of the place was almost painful to hear.

If I want to hear a healthy native bird population I can go to my own Queen Elizabeth Trust Block and the two Council Reserves I have on my own place. Stepping stone blocks out of the Northern Ureweras Mainland Island Project.

Just a cattle and goat fence around these. Pest control methods... Traps and hand laid feratox.

Don't shoot the messenger BAN 1080 just been copied and posted

HAPPY 1st BIRTHDAY TO US !!!!
To all of you , Id like to thank you all for liking , posting , sharing , spreading the word , buying t-shirts hoodies and stickers and joining in the debates . It would be great to thank you all in person but with the 16800 odd people that would be hard !
On this day last year I was on PIG DOGS AND GEAR FOR SALE NZ and joined in the conversation on 1080 . I decided that there was somewhere needed to get this horrible poison and what it does exposed to public view and DOCs lies to come to an end. I think we have defiantly exposed their crap they spin.
To 1080 EYEWITNESS ..... thank you for being another cog in the chain , and for your support and backing!
To 1080 DOES THE JOB YOU DONT .... Your a bloody joke !! Abusive , and cannot handle the truth .
To the ADMIN , Jonty , Jason , Chrissy and Michelle .... you guys are friggn awesome and keep this site alive with your posts , facts n figgures , apparel , stickers , all the research you do , and support.
Thankyou again everyone keep up the great work spreading the word about this site , 1080 eyewitness and 1080 .
Cheers guys and girls ,
DUNCAN.
I would also like to take this opportunity to comment well. Jonty.
Thanks for taking the bull by the horns and kicking this off Duncan, you have certainly shown your 'go getter' skills in getting this and the T-shirts etc going. Thanks also for having faith in me and adding me to the admin despite Barry Baxter whinging in your ear that I would destroy this site. The one directive you gave me was too "stick to 1080 and not to digress to side topics". which was a bloody great directive as it keeps us on the straight and narrow and focused on one thing.
It is important to think back a year when this site first formed. We were constantly bickering and basically being shouted down and abused by the poison pushers. It was their objective to do this too scare as many people off as possible, which was working to an extent. this site has given thousands a chance to sit back and read about what is really happening and ask questions without fear of being abused. In those days there was a main crew that commented on other sites but only about 20 or so full timers, it is great to see that the number has now swelled drastically.
Looking through the demographics and country stat's a lot of people are hearing about 1080 over seas and clicking 'like' here and it is great to see that happening and the word is increasingly getting out. I am surprised by how many young people actually mention to in conversation their view on 1080 and they don't know that I am involved with this at all. The word is getting out there and we will eventually reach tipping point where we will have to be listened to.
Also many thanks to my wife who lets me spend hours doing this. Michelle the latest admin who's words her posts way more eloquent than I do and can, you bring a whole new dimension to this site. Jason , Chrissy for sorting out the t-shirts, stickers and such, I'm sure it's not that easy. Barry Baxter and Dan Kane (pro 1080 supporters) also thanks you because without your constant dribble and abuse that pointed out to me how wrong 1080 is, I would have walked away years ago. The hard core crew that is on here most days, you are a great help fielding questions and supplying articles, cuttings, audio, video etc wicked guys, you know who you are... Pete Lusk, bloody hell mate, what you just did was not an light call to make but you stood up and made that call for what you believe in, WOW you blow me away with your actions. The Graff Boys, Dr Pollard, Mike Meads, the O'Keef's and all the others that are the pioneers of this movement, you guys are an inspiration to me and I am sure to quite a few others. An lastly everyone out there for hitting 'like', commenting, sharing and telling others a very special thanks. Sorry if I have forgotten someone this was off the cuff.
Sorry if we don't get a chance to reply to everyone but it is a big job getting through it and we have a life to try and keep together outside of this.
Bloody that got a bit long winded, thank you all again from the bottom of my heart.
Jonty