Thread: Hunter shot in Kaimai Range near Te Aroha

maybe hunters aged 50-64 should be banned during the roar as they account for 59% of human killers

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

@stretch get of the grass mate all you have done is explained the thought processes of a sociopath that thinks they are to clever to follow any kind of proper procedure and wrapped it up in a big old wet blanket of an excuse called "human nature"
I sure as fuck don't go through any stupid "heat of the moment" thought process that would result in me shooting another human being and if you really believe the dribble you have said then maybe you need to go hand in your licence.

I don't get where sociopaths come into this. Is that where a shooter doesn't care one way or another if it's a human? I'm not calling Confirmation Bias an excuse at all. It's one reason these incidents happen, but it does not excuse the behaviour - it merely explains it.

Your second point makes it sound like you're saying "It'll never happen to me". That's a dangerous attitude. I think awareness of Confirmation Bias can make people safer hunters, IF they employ techniques to minimise it's effects.

Which bit do you think is bullshit? Confirmation Bias in general, or it's application to the scenario where a hunter misidentifies their target?

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Originally Posted by stretch

Not true. "Identify your target beyond all doubt" SHOULD be enough, but it's not. People convince themselves it's an animal to the point where there is no doubt in their mind, yet they are still wrong.

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It worries me that you see that as ok. You must to be so vocal to support that view.

Just reading this,...something is so wrong....so called “experienced” hunters..REALLY??? The so called seven rules do not take into account human factors,when the “hunt” is on.......Im in the buisness of dealing with “human factors”.....humans make unbelievably stupid decisions,.....no amount of “solid” rules will solve this issue,.....the deaths and shootings prove that rules,no matter hard you stick to them ...cockups are inevitable......The human factors Gibo?,some/ many are better at dealing with them than others.....



Quote....Long senior mistook his son for a deer through about 20 metres of bush after spending a considerable amount of time trying to identify his target.

Tragically, he was convinced his target was a deer when he pulled the trigger.

An experienced hunter and member of the Southland Deerstalkers Association, Long senior, like so many before him, failed to follow the basic firearms rule. Identify the target before pulling the trigger.

He isn't alone.

Just 11 months earlier, another experienced Southland deer stalker and hunting safety advocate, 56-year-old Wayne Edgerton from Tuatapere, accidentally shot and killed 25-year-old Adam Hill who was hunting with a separate party in the Longwood Range.

It was inexplicable, Judge Michael Turner said at Edgerton's sentencing, that a man with his background would pull the trigger without clearly identifying his target.

That appears to be the crux of the problem.

Both Edgerton and Stephen Long were convinced they had identified their targets and were shooting at deer, not people.

In Long's case, he told police he spent "two or three" minutes confirming it was a deer, both with his naked eye and by looking through the rifle scope. He moved left and then right to identify his target and he saw, he mistakenly believed, the deer feeding and antlers on its head before pulling the trigger, killing his son.

Edgerton, hearing several roars of what he believed was a stag, walked towards the sound and saw, both with the naked eye and through a scope, what he believed was a deer. He checked the target again with his naked eye, raised the rifle, and fired, killing Hill who was wearing brightly coloured hunting clothing.

Only Davidson, Long and Edgerton, and the others who mistakenly shot people while deer hunting, know what was going through their minds before they pulled the trigger.

But what is known is many hunters who fatally shoot other hunters convince themselves it is a deer - rather than prove to themselves it is not a deer.

New Zealand Deerstalkers Association president Bill O'Leary says hunters should treat every movement and sound in the bush as being a person.

"And it's only when the deer positively identifies itself that you pull the trigger."

Positively identifying a deer requires hunters to see the head, neck and shoulders of the animal at the same time, not pieces of a deer or what they think are pieces of a deer.

He also stressed that hunters should wear high-visibility orange or blue so it was easier for other hunters to identify them.

They should never use their telescopic sights to identify deer, which Edgerton and Long had both done, because the sights magnified the image and often showed only a small piece of the animal.

O'Leary says about 60 per cent of people shot in mistaken identity cases while deer hunting were shot by people in their own hunting parties, as was the case with Vanderley and Long.

Reasons for the shootings vary, with mistaken identity and the accidental discharge of firearms prevalent.

Two of the five cases this year were the result of failing to identify the target.

"We know why they happen. They don't identify their targets. Why does it happen? That's got us flummoxed," O'Leary says.

"We traditionally thought it was people who were young and inexperienced. But we have got people who are middle-aged, experienced hunters, and they are failing to identify."

O'Leary, who chairs a multi-agency committee focused on improving gun safety, says a possible reason is that some older hunters have poorer eyesight and are perhaps a bit blase when hunting. They perhaps rely too much on their past deer shooting experiences to draw conclusions - instead of going through the methodical process of fully identifying their targets.

Older and experienced hunters were often looking for a flicker of movement, such as the white from a deer's tail, and not seeing the whole of the deer, O'Leary suggests.

Hunting tragedies while spotlighting was another issue being looked at, but it comes back to the golden rule. It is safe if people identify their targets, O'Leary says.

O'Leary and Nicole McKee, the former NZ Mountain Safety Council programme manager for firearms and hunter safety, believe the increasing numbers of hunters in New Zealand is a factor in the increased number of shootings.

"Hunting nationally is on the increase, there's more people out there participating," McKee said when she was still working at the mountain safety council.

Her aim was to have the seven basic rules of firearms safety embedded into the brains of hunters, so they abide by the rules as naturally as motorists put seatbelts on when getting into their cars.

McKee says at least one of the seven basic firearms rules was broken in each of the reports about hunting tragedies she has read.

"When you read some of this stuff you will be pretty gobsmacked about how some of these events occurred. We are actually trying to say, these things have happened due to the breakdown of common sense and people failing to abide by the seven rules."

Richard Vanderley says each time another deer hunting tragedy hits the news, the death of his own son comes flooding back.

"It hits you like a wave again. You know another couple of families have been torn apart.

"Accidents, carelessness, stupidity ... but the fallout is just immense."

The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.

But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.

"Once they are out there and in the thick of the roar and the adrenaline is pumping, people forget those things [safety rules]. It's still going to happen, but if we can reduce it because people think more and are better educated, it's worthwhile. If a life is saved, it's worthwhile."

With more than 241,000 licensed firearms holders in New Zealand, McKee suggests a way to get the message to the masses is to get alongside corporates and publicise safety messages ahead of the popular stag and duck hunting seasons, when accidental shootings often occur.

She believes the number of tragedies can be reduced.

But for some it is too late, and the pain doesn't go away.

Mark Vanderley, and 27 others killed in deer hunting tragedies in the past 24 years, aren't coming home.

"We just feel he has been robbed," Vanderley's mother says.

"He was a good person, he had a lot to offer. It's just so unfair."

- Stuff

Quote”The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.

But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.”......end quote

Gibo...from the same article......this bloke must be full of shit too.....nothing personal,I have the opinion that you know your stuff,and are sure you personally would never make these types of errors,......we are all different,individuals “human factors” are different,...I see and deal with it every day,.......human factors fuck up basic rules

Originally Posted by A330driver

Quote”The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.

But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.”......end quote

Gibo...from the same article......this bloke must be full of shit too.....

I'm not saying they are full of shit, I just don't support this easy excuse every time someone is shot. If you know what sex the animal is and a guess at its age I cant see how a human would fit into any of that. Some people also need to settle the fuck down when hunting, its only a bloody deer (or what have you).

About 25 years ago I was hunting in Pureora when I heard a noise up the ridge ahead of me. I could see the rear end of a deer facing a way from me. I could see the rump patch and about half its back. I decided to move ahead of a small shrub before I took a shot. The deer moved a bit and looked a bit funny. It seemed to have two rump patches. It took a few seconds before I realised it was actually a hunter.

Originally Posted by Gibo

It worries me that you see that as ok. You must to be so vocal to support that view.

Where did I say it was OK? It does not excuse or condone what happens, it merely helps explain HOW or WHY it happens, in some, not all cases. I'm vocal because these are not accidents. There are very few, if any, true accidents. The shooter messed up, but that's not the end of it. WHY did they? "Identify your target beyond all doubt" needs to be broken down further. Doubt yourself further. Don't trust your eyes or your ears or your brain.

I've seen first hand how confirmation bias has lead people to the incorrect conclusion in land navigation, air navigation, piloting, engineering, and I can see how it could affect someone trying to ID a target.

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Yeah mate,great points,I’m with you on that,........it’s incredible,sad,deplorable how many of us are getting shot.......reading the words from these articles doesnt do us any justice,because it’s does not address the situation,the time and the happening event,.....fucked up I know.....I see pilots do fucking dumb shit in a simulator ,crashing airplanes,and it’s like,are you fucking serious,what drove you to that.......it’s a complete loss of your environment,situational awareness,rules etc etc.......but what drove them to that?????.....what drove them to disobey 7 basic rules that should have stopped these events...

Originally Posted by Gibo

I'm not saying they are full of shit, I just don't support this easy excuse every time someone is shot. If you know what sex the animal is and a guess at its age I cant see how a human would fit into any of that. Some people also need to settle the fuck down when hunting, its only a bloody deer (or what have you).

I think we are all thinking the same things just all a bit emo on it

Somehow we need to teach people to slow down, be sure and know what they need to see before pulling that trigger. Not easy I know.

Originally Posted by stug

About 25 years ago I was hunting in Pureora when I heard a noise up the ridge ahead of me. I could see the rear end of a deer facing a way from me. I could see the rump patch and about half its back. I decided to move ahead of a small shrub before I took a shot. The deer moved a bit and looked a bit funny. It seemed to have two rump patches. It took a few seconds before I realised it was actually a hunter.

For just that reason I carry a strip of Blaze orange cloth (about the size of a beanie unfolded) and a safty pin with me. If I shoot a deer close enough to the road as to carry the whole thing out I pin the strip of cloth the back of the deer.

Originally Posted by stretch

This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171

Thank you for that link Stretch, That booklet holds a lot of eyeopening information.

Perhaps a thread on near misses (ie slips/falls/what stug posted) might be educational for everyone? Far more constructive than the direction this thread is taking.

Ditto on that mate....the reoccurring them in the article above is....”they don’t identify the target”.....because if they did,we wouldn’t be having this conversation.......there has to be a much better attempt by all of us to figure this out and help one another out.....because sure as shit,I don’t want to be on either end of one of these stories

Originally Posted by Gibo

I think we are all thinking the same things just all a bit emo on it

Somehow we need to teach people to slow down, be sure and know what they need to see before pulling that trigger. Not easy I know.

Originally Posted by huglife

maybe hunters aged 50-64 should be banned during the roar as they account for 59% of human killers

So being over 64 it's ok for me to hunt during the roar, thank you.

Been out and about over Easter in Pureora, have met all sorts in my travels. Some on their only hunting outing for the year and have to shoot something. Others quite relaxed and waiting for the bush to go back to "normal". One thing that really stood out was the number of hunters in blue blaze.

Words from a mate of mine (no, not Ginger McScragglyBeard). Worth a read:

https://gearlocker.nz/well-the-roar-is-nearly-upon-us/

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