Thread: Hunter shot in Kaimai Range near Te Aroha

Originally Posted by GWH

Im not so sure Ryan, i believe that anyone that thinks that they are above this, or that this situation could never happen to them, could potentially be quite dangerous.

My thinking is that if a person thought that theres no way that they could make this mistake, then it will not always be at front of mind. Whereas if we think that we all have the potential to make this mistake, then surely that must scare us to a certain degree and always be front of mind and we put our own proccedure in place where we perform multiple checks to confirm beyond all doubt that what we are about to shoot is indeed the intended target.

Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?

Anyone that believes they're completely 100% infallible to this scenario is kidding themselves.
Also, no one is suggesting it as an excuse to escape blame, it's just part of why it happens.
Error due to human factors are a well studied and understood fact. We use this knowledge to change the way in which we reach conclusions and make decisions.

Expansion on how to 'identifying your target' needs to be hunter driven.
Is this a game animal yes/no doesn't cut it.
Is this another hunter? Is it a deer? What type of deer is it? What sex is the deer? Is this another hunter? Why am I sure I'm looking at a deer?

The brain can and will try to rationalise what the eyes see and ears hear in order to come up with favourable outcomes. Some people are more susceptible and things like fatigue, past experience, expectation and mood come into play also.

Anyone ever been sitting at the traffic lights, you zone out a little and the truck in the lane next to you starts rolling forwards on a filter light and you almost put the brake pedal through the floor because you think your rolling backwards relative to the other traffic.
For a split second you were positive your stationary vehicle was moving.

Originally Posted by Bonecrusher

I always hunt with a dog several advantages - indicating game being one, two a good dog is great company, three they hear & smell better than us multiple times one of my dogs have picked human sound and scent before me

BUT ~~
I know of another case where a chap was shot (he lived - minus half his shoulder from a 270) In Pureora again :-(
He was huddled into a Toe Toe bush on edge of clearing on evening with his dog - shot from 200m - he never knew what hit hime - woke up in Hamilton Hospital later

I was going to make this comment to @R93
The GSP breed are the worst - but any 4 legged animal tucked beside you is added danger
I used to put a knitted jersey on my GSP in blue - but it did not stay that blue for long

Yes - your dog would possible growl at the approach of another hunter - but its not you that we are talking about here - its another hunter shooting at you or your dog

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?

Ryan mate, take a deep breath buddy ;-)

Back the truck up, have another read of my post.

I have been tested in the situation in the roar, roaring stag moving in on me, i saw colour and movement thru thick cover at about 50 yards. I was pretty sure it was a deer, but at that point hadnt ID'd it, and my own proceedures meant that i wasnt going to shoot at colour and movement at something that i was pretty sure was a sika stag.

Everything was adding up that it was a stag, but i had not ID'd it beyond all doubt that it was. Bushes below me started to shake and i expected the stag to emerge from that at any second......then it burst out of the thick cover into the open.........a father and son dressed head to waist in blaze orange. We all shat ourselves (they too were certain they were stalking a jap stag).

At no point was my gun raised to my shoulder, instead it was in a state of very readiness, pointing 45 deg at ground, thumb on the saftey ready to go.

I can so see how these things happen. But it comes down to individuals own personalities, and self check mechanisiums. Everyone is different. But i honestly believe if we all go into the bush knowing that this type of thing has the potential to happen, even to us, then we will be far more consious of it and do the extra checks and confirmations needed to fully confirm ID before we pull the trigger.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?

Ryan, there's a post on here mentioning Wayne Edgerton, the Southland guy who shot another hunter in the Longwoods. I would have put Wayne into your team of 100% sure team, he went to extra lengths to promote hunter safety and identification in his region, even to the point of placing posters about identifying your target on public access-ways to hunting areas. Maybe you should try & contact this fellow and ask him some questions on how he made the mistake, when he had the same single minded viewpoint as your own.

Originally Posted by GWH

Ryan mate, take a deep breath buddy ;-)

Back the truck up, have another read of my post.

I have been tested in the situation in the roar, roaring stag moving in on me, i saw colour and movement thru thick cover at about 50 yards. I was pretty sure it was a deer, but at that point hadnt ID'd it, and my own proceedures meant that i wasnt going to shoot at colour and movement at something that i was pretty sure was a sika stag.

Everything was adding up that it was a stag, but i had not ID'd it beyond all doubt that it was. Bushes below me started to shake and i expected the stag to emerge from that at any second......then it burst out of the thick cover into the open.........a father and son dressed head to waist in blaze orange. We all shat ourselves (they too were certain they were stalking a jap stag).

At no point was my gun raised to my shoulder, instead it was in a state of very readiness, pointing 45 deg at ground, thumb on the saftey ready to go.

I can so see how these things happen. But it comes down to individuals own personalities, and self check mechanisiums. Everyone is different. But i honestly believe if we all go into the bush knowing that this type of thing has the potential to happen, even to us, then we will be far more consious of it and do the extra checks and confirmations needed to fully confirm ID before we pull the trigger.

Exactly Clint, point being you didn't pull the trigger because you are a rational person, these idiots that shoot people would have been all over that.

I think I have the right in my own country to harvest meat rut or no rut if we start down that track you may as well just ban shooting altogether then no one will get shot will they if you choose to take the shot your responsible for the out come no fuking excuses

Attitude has a lot to do it i think.
There's a lot of people on this forum I wouldn't want to be anywhere near in the hills.
Not going near the Bush at Easter is a pretty good start, we where walking cows out of a road end yesterday and I counted 25 cars going in over 3 hours.
We Recently walked out down the sparrowhawk track where the soldier got shot it was pretty sobering looking at the scene maybe all hunters should be exposed to a scene like this??
Having meet the guy that shot the soldier as we flew in at same time it was intersing to see the scene and finish the puzzle.

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

BUT ~~
I know of another case where a chap was shot (he lived - minus half his shoulder from a 270) In Pureora again :-(
He was huddled into a Toe Toe bush on edge of clearing on evening with his dog - shot from 200m - he never knew what hit hime - woke up in Hamilton Hospital later

I was going to make this comment to @R93
The GSP breed are the worst - but any 4 legged animal tucked beside you is added danger
I used to put a knitted jersey on my GSP in blue - but it did not stay that blue for long

Yes - your dog would possible growl at the approach of another hunter - but its not you that we are talking about here - its another hunter shooting at you or your dog

Not growl indicate 100% I would know that something or someone was incoming with a Labrador working 3M in front of you he would display signs, air scenting , when his tail stops wagging it is game on. It is just safer for several reasons if you have a well trained dog working for you

Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.

Originally Posted by Bonecrusher

Not growl indicate 100% I would know that something or someone was incoming with a Labrador working 3M in front of you he would display signs, air scenting , when his tail stops wagging it is game on. It is just safer for several reasons if you have a well trained dog working for you

I have never known a dog to "indicate" another human
But I do not think you have understood my point - spoken from near on 50 years experience with dogs and people :-)

So I was just talking with another member about this and I came up with an analogy to explain my feelings around this issue, maybe not the best analogy but the shoe fits...
Trying to justify this in anyway shape or form is like blaming a women for being raped because all men have the ABILITY to rape a woman. But do all blokes go around raping women? No they don't, because there are rational thinkers among us, and then there are assholes that don't give a shit what consequences come from their actions, these are the rapists, these are the ones that don't belong in our society or in our sport. All you fellas trying to say that you wouldn't put past yourself to make some kind of mistake are probably best off staying away from women while you're at it, because that is how your mentality comes across...

Originally Posted by Pointer

Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.

That's way off what Ryan is getting at and you know it. That's what he is advocating.

Originally Posted by Pointer

Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.

Where did I state that I dont doubt everything I see and hear? Or that anyone for that matter who knows they're never going to shoot someone doesn't doubt what they see and hear?
Did I say anywhere that I can tell from a mile off if you're a deer or not?

Originally Posted by Sarvo

I have never known a dog to "indicate" another human
But I do not think you have understood my point - spoken from near on 50 years experience with dogs and people :-)

Question what does a Police dog do.... mate I will hit your fifty and raise you 5 ;-)