Thread: Illegal hunting..does it bother you?

Of course illegal hunting pisses me off.

It ruins the name of hunters in a time where we need to be watching ourselves more than ever.
I’ve lost fantastic access opportunities due to illegal hunting on private land adjacent to the public land i had permission to access. Not to mention legitimate access opportunities closed to general public because of it. Mid Pohangina being just one example I can think of.

I won’t be the only one with a story like this.

And as far as thermals go , i think we can all agree is that they aren’t particularly ethical if you want to hunt in the spirit of hunting.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I don't see hunting on Doc land without a permit as a biggie. Simply because having a permit doesn't prove anything about you. You never get declined if you apply for one. On numerous occasions I have had a check of the date on a permit and found it has expired. Doesn't mean I intended to hunt illegally, just an oversight.

Intention doesn't have to be proven. If you do, you do.
Look at it in the context of H&S legislation. If you do something that might harm someone, the law doesn't care if you intended to or not.

I expect Sidney to re-appear any minute

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I don't see hunting on Doc land without a permit as a biggie. Simply because having a permit doesn't prove anything about you. You never get declined if you apply for one. On numerous occasions I have had a check of the date on a permit and found it has expired. Doesn't mean I intended to hunt illegally, just an oversight.

I can see where 7mmwsm is coming from. The permit fulfils a legal purpose only. It does nothing to ascertain your proficiency in the bush or with a firearm/weapon. It does nothing to improve safety (i.e. limiting the number of hunters crammed into a single watershed during the Roar). And it does nothing to improve game management...'cause the bureaucrats in DoC do not believe in such a thing.

And 'cause it does very little for any of the above, I simple keep clicking till I have all the North Island and most of South included in the one permit.

Originally Posted by mimms2

Most I see are within shotgun range.

To me there are degrees of wrong in most situations. Illegal hunting being one of them.
As an example, a friend of mine used to hunt a large block of land in the North Island. It was privately owned (by a Maori trust) and neither he, or the many others who hunted it, ever got permission to do so. It bordered a large DoC block and people used to come and go off it as they pleased. It was not that the land owners didn't know (as some did) but more that they didn't care. The land was not being used for anything in particular and they were doing no harm to it apart from keeping the deer and pig numbers in check. Legally I guess you could say they were poaching as they did not have expressed permission to hunt there and could therefore be prosecuted but practically they were not upsetting anybody (ie the land owner) by being there hunting. Was that such a heinous crime? I don't think you can compare this to something like sneaking onto a game farm at night and shooting the owners prize stag. Someone who does this knows that the owner doesn't want them there and knows they shouldn't be there.
Foot note. The land I mentioned is now leased by a helicopter operator who (naturally) doesn't want people on it other than his paying clients. My mate has now stopped hunting there.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Yes you are right Tahr, but my question would be, what useful purpose does a permit serve?
And the more I think about the permit system the more I think it is a lot like Jacinda's "you must carry your papers" which gave you permission to be out doing your essential service during the lock up. The papers don't make any difference to the task, but give some "higher power" the ability to control you.

We cannot get a permit without a firearms licence so requiring a permit gives some surety that others hunting are licenced (hopefully). It also gives contact details to DOC for those who may be there.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

We cannot get a permit without a firearms licence so requiring a permit gives some surety that others hunting are licenced (hopefully). It also gives contact details to DOC for those who may be there.

This is not correct. Anyone can get a permit, including a person that doesnt have a firearms licence. Look at this


::You still need a DOC permit if you're hunting:

with a bow or knife
under the immediate supervision of someone with a valid New Zealand firearms licence (Section 4b of the Arms Code - Immediate supervision (external site)).""

Quoted under DOC permit system. So, if you going to hunt with a knife, bow, dogs etc or if you dont have a licence but going with someone that has and you maybe the one shooting under thier supervision you
need a permit and anyone can get one even if you dont have a firearms licennce.

Just checked, you blokes are right no licence required. I think that needs to change

Yes, previously you did need a firearms license to get a DOC Hunting permit but DOC updated the online site. Maybe part reason is that if you are supervising another person in the field who hasn't a firearms license, they too need to apply for a hunting permit. Interesting alright.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Just checked, you blokes are right no licence required. I think that needs to change

No
Bow hunters.
Pig hunters with nothing more than dogs and a knife (and of course the quad).
Non hunting types who tag along with a FAL holder mate out of interest in maybe getting into it as all people tagging along in your party require a DOC permit to hunt whether they are hunting or not.

Works fine as it is, as they say, don't try to fix something that ant broke

Be like only allowing current FAL holders only into any hunting sports shops even if they are there just to check out camping, tramping and fishing gear.

It's interesting that until some time in the last month or two the DOC public policy around thermal contradicted itself. Previously the conditions on the permit itself stated no thermal could ever be used for hunting at any time while the website official unabridged conditions that were linked to when you completed the permit application said thermal could not be used during non-hunting night hours. It looks like either they've updated the website or I can't find the page I found previously. I checked because of all the miscommunication on the subject and found that the permit rules varied from the official rules. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the page so it's gone unless I somehow find an old link somewhere. Given that until now even DOC was contradicting itself I'm not surprised that no one quite knows the rules. In this case until recently, it was completely possible to go to the DOC website, read the official rules, and get two completely different answers.

In terms of ethics, I'd say if you do your due diligence to follow rules as they are written, are conscientious in your behavior, and respect animals (IE ensure a clean quick death), you're fine. I don't really care past that. Hunt with a rocket launcher or pointy stick, if the animal dies quickly then it died better than most wild animals and lived better than some captive animals, so really that's a plus all round. Past that do whatever you want, especially if it doesn't inconvenience others excessively (I'm sure that some trampers will say that hearing a gunshot is unacceptable, so I'm willing to make allowance for small inconveniences... we can't be expected to get along all the time unless we're heavily drugged à la Brave New World).

I'd also say that people deliberately operating far outside the rules (IE shooting from a vehicle with a spotlight, from a public road, onto private land they don't have legal access to, without a firearms permit) aren't hunters... and we'd do well to correct any description of them as hunters to criminals and poachers, otherwise the public will see us as the same.

A guide and member of this forum jumped a deer fence into a game park from Doc land with a client and hunted without permission. Got caught, charged and convicted. Certainly bothered the game estate owner, and losing his firearms license probably bothered the so called guide.

My take on the DOC permit system is that its only useful purpose is to guide the applicant through any warnings that might be in force for any area select and also to put up the terms against which you tick the yes accept box.
Most of the terms are so open ended as to be pretty useless even as a guideline IMO. e.g.

No firearm shall be discharged:
In the vicinity of huts, tracks, campsites, road-ends or other public places.
Within 500 m of a Great Walk Hut or track. See Great Walks.
In a manner that endangers, frightens or annoys members of the public, or that endangers any property.

In the vicinity of huts, tracks, campsites, road-ends or other public places.
Well excuse me but the whole flipping DOC bit of land your hunting on is probably a 'other public place'

Yes some of it is quite poorly written really when you dissect it.

Fuck me some of you guys really overthink things and make mountains out of mole-hills. The same basic rules of the DOC permit system have existed since 1987 when DOC came into existance and are pretty much the same the same rules as we operated under back in the days of NZFS/Lands and Survey.I've looked back through the odd permit that I have,which were meant to be handed back in,just to check. Admitadly Thermal Vision and to some extent Night Vision are the latest aids, possibly to enable poor hunters? to bag their animals, but at the end of the day it's pretty simple. No hunting 1\2 hour after sunset till 1/2 hour before dawn.
I know we all stretch this from time to time. And yes, I do use thermal/night vision for pest control, they are a usefull tool as a means to an end but I am undecided as to how 'ethical' they are in a "recreational hunter" scenario. As I've stated before, pest control it's a numbers game and possibly your job on the line.But recreationally it's about getting out there,enjoying nature,the solitude of hunting on your own,the comararderie if hunting with others and hopefully the enjoyment of taking a trophy home and/or meat to feed family and friends or those in need.
Rant over,ready for the flaming, not too worried.