Thread: Impact joules and ethics

Originally Posted by woods223

What a crock of shit that statement is. A shit load of deer have hit the deck for myself and others using calibers/bullets that deliver less energy than that. First deer I shot was with a 22lr 51 years ago, dropped on the spot. Many more have done so over the years. Nearly every one of 352 deer shot last year was with 223 using 55gr bullets delivering less energy than your statement.

Ummmm,,,,he was joking mate.

Originally Posted by woods223

Yeah whatever. Bullshit posts like that just piss me off.

But funny after you blow the steam off.


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Originally Posted by Dicko

But funny after you blow the steam off.


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According to Philipo, sakoswarosorted likes that

Originally Posted by 16Tontovarish

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I'm wondering about ethical shots at range.

My situation is that I'm slowly getting more and more confident at taking longer shots in the field. I work on three quarters of whatever I can consistently hit first shot on the range being my actual real world ability.

This means that 3-400m shots are on the table now, and that means I feel I have to worry about the round actually hitting with enough oomph to do its job. I figure joules are a relatively good way to measure that, as that gives a good indication of if the round will expand properly, and helps sidestep the issue of ballistics between cartridges. I've seen the figure of around 2000 joules for red deer thrown around but I don't know where that figure comes from.

When shot placement isn't the main concern how do you folks judge an ethical shot based on distance? Am I overthinking things?

Also please don't turn this into a pissing contest about caliber.

Choose good bullets for your quarry (ones that perform at both end of the spectrum in range, have consistent BC, easy to obtain) and place them well. Simple as that.

Personally would not use copper bullets on deer sized game if the terminal velocity falls below 2,000 fps which could be as close as 250m depending on barrel length and catridge.

A good 'match' bullet (AMAX/TMK/ELDM) would probably work to around 1,400-1,600 fps or possibly lower depending on placement (just behind shoulder).

Energy is no measurement of the terminal performance of a bullet. You might as well measure how much smoke comes out of the barrel. Or how loud the shot is. These things are all measureable, but are they relevant to the killing affect of a bullet?

For example:
I shot two deer one afternoon with a .44-40 loaded with pure lead bullets and loaded with black powder. Another day I shot a deer with a .270. All were at 80 metres.
The pure soft lead bullets of the ancient .44 (with the same energy as a thrown stone) both hit the two deer broadside. One dropped in five yards. The other ran twenty yards. Both bullets went through the lungs. Both bullets exited and I cannot prove they are not still going.
The .270 deer dropped in its tracks to a tail end shot. The bullet stopped in 18 inches.

The first two deer died because I blew a 44 caliber hole through their lungs. This took hardly any energy at all. It would have been about 400 foot pounds. Impact velocity was about 800fps. Bullets were made out of roofing lead. You can bend it with your fingers.

The last deer expired because I destroyed its spine and bone and bullets fragments went through its significant organs. It dropped instead of running because it had no mechanism for standing. It died because the fragments penetrated and destroyed its lungs. The copper jacketed bullet hit at 2900 fps and still had over 1600 foot pounds of energy but did not exit.

What does this all mean? It means that deer die easily.
Bullets kill due to their mechanical destruction, and that is caused by their construction and the speed they impact and how fragile the target is and whether you hit a vital part of it. It means that foot pounds are a measure of how much energy it takes to lift a pound a foot off the ground, but otherwise have nothing to do with bullets except that you can calculate it and misattribute effects to it as if it were a cause.

368yds, 2166fps impact velocity, 771.0 ft lb energy at impact. .223

VID: https://youtu.be/JiPkNl9wy_g

Bullet construction and adequate speed.

This from above vid. Exit.

I think the lesson here is if you don't miss and poke a big enough hole through something vital the target animal will expire and all are happy. If you do enough or substantial damage to enough bits, the target animal will expire and everyone is happy.

If you miss anything vital, or don't do enough damage to enough vital bits your target animal will opt for 'exit, stage left/right/outta here bro' and no one is happy.

Everything else is a nifty theoretical discussion to be honest. Even speed is only one measure that might predict how the bullet will perform, example speed of a .177 air rifle pellet can be nicely subsonic at 1100-odd FPS - but I would not consider using it on deer even though that is travelling faster than some of the subsonic pills used to absolutely flatten big deer on the spot. Energy is the other part of the consideration when selecting a cartridge, and you really need to know both.

Speed of bullet is what gives you the 'design window' that the bullet is designed to expand correctly when it impacts, faster and blow up, slower and pencil through. Energy is what means the bullet is likely to be reliable, quick and humane at killing when it impacts within it's design speed. One without the other isn't enough info really.

As an aside, deer are not that easy to kill to be honest. Seen several that have survived broken legs from bullet impacts, one that took a hit through the back of a lung and out through a kidney, part of the liver and the gut and was dropped by another hunter at which it was found to have black gangrene and not happy at all. Others have had broadheads in them, one with an antler tine embedded in it's skull, a couple dead on their feet with shot off lower jaws etc etc. Hit em where it matters, not where it's cool...

Rabbit = say for argument sake 1kg a 40 grn .22lr is near enough to five grams? So a 200th of weight of bunny.... So a 100lb deer would have to be hit with half a pound of lead going around 1000 fps for things to be equal....and we have all shot bunnies more than once to kill cleanly with .22lr. shot placement is vital.