Thread: Kaimanawa Forest Park

It seemed like a balanced article.The MSM are ok when they are saying what you want.

The overt racism on here and other places was noted.

@Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.

Originally Posted by Woody

@Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.

You are correct. I had in my mind the thread about the DOC wild animal management job.

Originally Posted by Woody

@Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.

There is a bit on some of the Facebook posts.

Thought that may have been the case.

We're not farcebook here though ay.

I read the article on stuff, and the one in the Sunday Star times, and note that they are different - and the Star Times paper version appears to say that the land parcel the road is on was given away in the 70's - contradicting what they also had said regarding ownership, but I guess editing or something.

What does interest me is the role of the Federated Mountain Clubs in all of this. Early on reached out to their local rep and received an answer essentially saying we aren't looking to upset the adjacent land owners. She has asked me to keep the details of the email private, but the tone of the correspondence was not at all what I would have expected from a group who have among their stated aims (taken from their website)
all New Zealanders should have free and enabling access to all public land.
FMC will promote the connectivity of public land
where land under non-public tenure, including Crown pastoral lease, separates public land from public access then, following consultation, provision should be made for practical and enduring public access to the public land.

Elsewhere they claim to keep an eye on DOC and the Government, and I take this quote directly from their Vice Presidents online bio - it seems especially apt here
This work has taught me that our conservation estate is managed by often-unaccountable officials,
behind closed doors and sometimes without, necessarily, recourse to the relevant policies or laws.

Finally, while I wonder if it is possible to separate the self appointed guardians of the conservation estate (Public lands, that is - owned by all New Zealanders) from being too intertwined with DOC, and thus concerned with their income as it is a small country, and there is always going to be the same people involved (I know that many DOC staff are there because they really do care).
I am struck by the VERY conciliatory attitude of the Rotorua rep, and note from her FMC bio that her day job is contracting to the Backcountry Trust - a group who do excellent work that should be applauded by all users of the land we all value and love. Digging a tiny bit into the backcountry Trust website give this regarding funding -
Sponsors
We are primarily funded by DOC, but are also supported by a select band of like-minded corporate sponsors to whom we are very grateful. (Italics mine)

I am in an industry that is pretty much entirely to do with government funding one way or another - water and waste water. As a result I have to moderate my public utterances on various subjects - Three Waters, for example, for I know that it could have a direct effect on my ability to win projects, pay my staff and buy my groceries.

I wonder if this applies to other fields as well? I wonder how other folks manage the conflict between their desire to do good and their need to not offend their paymaster?

What we have here is a fairly simple matter -at it's heart is that the land, while not a road, absolutely is Crown owned. The question is, who is going to control it? As we have all seen, ownership is not as important as the ability to control what happens, and I would be very disappointed to see the loss of access that the Waipakahi road allows being lost to satisfy a group with their own commercial gain at the centre of their concerns.

Helisika - I'm done with you.

Originally Posted by Ross Nolan

What we have here is a fairly simple matter -at it's heart is that the land, while not a road, absolutely is Crown owned. The question is, who is going to control it? As we have all seen, ownership is not as important as the ability to control what happens, and I would be very disappointed to see the loss of access that the Waipakahi road allows being lost to satisfy a group with their own commercial gain at the centre of their concerns.

Helisika - I'm done with you.

You have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that this is the absolute heart of the matter and for the sake of continued public access (and to set a president) it is imperative that NZ sees this for what it is and does not sidestep the greater good for the commercial gain of a few.

Originally Posted by Shearer

You have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that this is the absolute heart of the matter and for the sake of continued public access (and to set a president) it is imperative that NZ sees this for what it is and does not sidestep the greater good for the commercial gain of a few.

Completely agree with both of these statements.
The erosion of public access for the pecuniary gain of private individuals shouldn't be tolerated.
There seems to be a bit of smoke and mirrors at play around ownership of lands and Gaslighting around rubbish being dumped.
I am a little worried that miss Dimozantos is playing both sides too.

Originally Posted by Ross Nolan

. …

What does interest me is the role of the Federated Mountain Clubs in all of this. Early on reached out to their local rep and received an answer essentially saying we aren't looking to upset the adjacent land owners. She has asked me to keep the details of the email private, but the tone of the correspondence was not at all what I would have expected from a group who have among their stated aims (taken from their website)
all New Zealanders should have free and enabling access to all public land.
FMC will promote the connectivity of public land
where land under non-public tenure, including Crown pastoral lease, separates public land from public access then, following consultation, provision should be made for practical and enduring public access to the public land.

Elsewhere they claim to keep an eye on DOC and the Government, and I take this quote directly from their Vice Presidents online bio - it seems especially apt here
This work has taught me that our conservation estate is managed by often-unaccountable officials,
behind closed doors and sometimes without, necessarily, recourse to the relevant policies or laws.

Finally, while I wonder if it is possible to separate the self appointed guardians of the conservation estate (Public lands, that is - owned by all New Zealanders) from being too intertwined with DOC, and thus concerned with their income as it is a small country, and there is always going to be the same people involved (I know that many DOC staff are there because they really do care).
I am struck by the VERY conciliatory attitude of the Rotorua rep, and note from her FMC bio that her day job is contracting to the Backcountry Trust - a group who do excellent work that should be applauded by all users of the land we all value and love. Digging a tiny bit into the backcountry Trust website give this regarding funding -
Sponsors
We are primarily funded by DOC, but are also supported by a select band of like-minded corporate sponsors to whom we are very grateful. (Italics mine)

I am in an industry that is pretty much entirely to do with government funding one way or another - water and waste water. As a result I have to moderate my public utterances on various subjects - Three Waters, for example, for I know that it could have a direct effect on my ability to win projects, pay my staff and buy my groceries.

I wonder if this applies to other fields as well? I wonder how other folks manage the conflict between their desire to do good and their need to not offend their paymaster?
…. .

It appears the same with the aotearoa outdoor access commission who have a noble sounding title and yet say they have done extensive research but after that have declined to take any action despite it being in their statement of performance expectations to do so.

There is a piece of the jigsaw missing and its not that the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust actually does own the land.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

It appears the same with the aotearoa outdoor access commission who have a noble sounding title and yet say they have done extensive research but after that have declined to take any action despite it being in their statement of performance expectations to do so.

There is a piece of the jigsaw missing and its not that the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust actually does own the land.

My suspicion is that during the current treaty settlement negotiations the Iwi were told that they would be given title to the land the "road" is on, and someone decided that today, tomorrow, whatever - let's build the gate now. The Crown won't prosecute anyone for being a little early - it was just an excess of enthusiasm.

LINZ, the Maori Land Court, everybody agrees on this though - right now, today, the land is owned by the Crown, and the trust have no right to build the gates.

Will anything be done about it? Contact your MP and ask. That is the ONLY thing Government cares about - things that put their next election in jeopardy.

I contacted Helisika right at the beginning.

This was from them
Hi Ross

The new venture at Waipakihi road is between Kaimanawa Lands Trust and Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust who are the land owners for Rangipo North 7C.
It is the Lake Rotoaira Trust who are assembling the gate, i will check in with their trustees and clear up the matter.

Kind Regards

Helisika Team
Helisika Limited
07 3842816
info@helisika.co.nz
www.helisika.co.nz


Followed by this
Hi Ross

I have been in contact with the head trustee for the Lake Rotoaira Trust. He has assured me in his words 'The road is on Rangipo North 7C which is “owned” by LRFT and we are within our legal right to protect our lands/assets'

Hope that clears things up for you.

Helisika Team
Helisika Limited
07 3842816
info@helisika.co.nz
www.helisika.co.nz


Which is absolutely incorrect. The land is owned by the Crown, and the Maori Land Court answered this point.

Does this make you any happier? I hope they care more for their machines than they do for the truth.

Comments elsewhere ring true trampers saying it isn't public land if you do not have access to it.
Public access isn't having to pay for a helicopter flight.
The Kaimanawas need more access.
By all means stop the fuckwits driving all the way in 4wds,have a good roads and a safe carparks.
Surely that is not too much to ask.

Originally Posted by erniec

Comments elsewhere ring true trampers saying it isn't public land if you do not have access to it.
Public access isn't having to pay for a helicopter flight.
The Kaimanawas need more access.
By all means stop the fuckwits driving all the way in 4wds,have a good roads and a safe carparks.
Surely that is not too much to ask.

Agree 100% about the need for access

One of my favourite memories of my daughters childhood was one of our walks into the base of Thunderbolt - mid summer when the river levels were safe for an 11 year old, and swimming in the pools on the way back to the car after a night under canvas and a quick look at the flats for a deer at dawn.

There is no way we could have walked over Urchin or through the Southern Access - regardless how easy accepting that as the New Normal (TM) would make life for DOC Turangi.

Apologies for the very long quote. I meant to trim it down a bit more.