Thread: Lead bullets and their risk to human health

Lead cast projectiles and for that matter shot pellets pose virtually no risk I bet, simply because they don't disintegrate on impact. Even rifle cup n core bullets at moderate velocity rarely shed fine lead through meat even after hitting bone. My 9.3 for example leaves an exit hole only about 2-3 times the size of the entry even after going through bone. The swift on the other hand would fill a large target with lead vapour I suspect but it's easy to see what's not worth taking to eat. I've wandered a bit but what I'm trying to say is if your aware of the expansion characteristics your ammunition and the speed range the bullets expected to perform within, then the risk if any is manageable. Or at least that's where I think I was going with this.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8414278/

Abstract

Aims: Following detection of symptomatic lead toxicity in two users of an indoor small bore rifle range, we studied users of several similar facilities to determine if significant recreational lead exposure occurred.

Method: Red cell lead levels were measured at the end of a six month (winter) indoor shooting season and prior to commencement of shooting in the following year. Lead levels in air and dust sampled at one range were also measured.

Results: REd cell lead levels were elevated at the end of season (mean 2.64 mumol/L) and lower (mean 1.60 mumol/L) in the preseason samples. The average red cell lead level of the male shooters was 2.4 times normal and is comparable to the levels found in many occupationally exposed groups. Maximum air lead levels were 210 micrograms/m3, more than 2 times the Department of Labour OSH workplace exposure standard TWA of 100 micrograms/m3. Analysis of dust samples showed that dust at this range contained 24% to 36% lead.

Conclusion: Although the mean time spent shooting was only 70 minutes per week the blood lead levels are similar to those previously reported for full time instructors at pistol ranges. This data confirms that lead exposure in recreational users of indoor small bore rifle ranges is a significant problem.

Originally Posted by stug

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8414278/

Abstract

Aims: Following detection of symptomatic lead toxicity in two users of an indoor small bore rifle range, we studied users of several similar facilities to determine if significant recreational lead exposure occurred.

Method: Red cell lead levels were measured at the end of a six month (winter) indoor shooting season and prior to commencement of shooting in the following year. Lead levels in air and dust sampled at one range were also measured.

Results: REd cell lead levels were elevated at the end of season (mean 2.64 mumol/L) and lower (mean 1.60 mumol/L) in the preseason samples. The average red cell lead level of the male shooters was 2.4 times normal and is comparable to the levels found in many occupationally exposed groups. Maximum air lead levels were 210 micrograms/m3, more than 2 times the Department of Labour OSH workplace exposure standard TWA of 100 micrograms/m3. Analysis of dust samples showed that dust at this range contained 24% to 36% lead.

Conclusion: Although the mean time spent shooting was only 70 minutes per week the blood lead levels are similar to those previously reported for full time instructors at pistol ranges. This data confirms that lead exposure in recreational users of indoor small bore rifle ranges is a significant problem.

They were indoors. Was the extraction system on and working efficiently?

There were idiots on the news here claiming a gas stove would kill you. But the atmospheric measurements were taken in a small kitchen doors closed and the vent fan turned of. I mean FMD. Clearly rigged to get what they wanted,,,,, more money.

Originally Posted by Oldbloke

They were indoors. Was the extraction system on and working efficiently?

There were idiots on the news here claiming a gas stove would kill you. But the atmospheric measurements were taken in a small kitchen doors closed and the vent fan turned of. I mean FMD. Clearly rigged to get what they wanted,,,,, more money.

Its happened in a tent here. Carbon monoxide poisoning. And this: https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southl...burner-dangers Wasn't rigged and wasn't for money.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Its happened in a tent here. Carbon monoxide poisoning. And this: https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southl...burner-dangers Wasn't rigged and wasn't for money.

More than once, in tents, caravans, boats, shacks, caves, mines and houses. But, IF (and I'll be the first to admit that this is unlikely due to the level of idiot that usually tries to operate these things) - IF the precautions are followed there is a much reduced risk of using gas burners indoors. And most of that revolves around the long-term effects of increased moisture levels which carry combustion by products into the living environment.

If you deliberately operate a gas burning appliance indoors for testing purposes without following the safety precautions you are either trying to rig the test results, don't know what you are doing or deliberately doing it to highlight the issues and how unsafe the practice is.

Originally Posted by No.3

More than once, in tents, caravans, boats, shacks, caves, mines and houses. But, IF (and I'll be the first to admit that this is unlikely due to the level of idiot that usually tries to operate these things) - IF the precautions are followed there is a much reduced risk of using gas burners indoors. And most of that revolves around the long-term effects of increased moisture levels which carry combustion by products into the living environment.

If you deliberately operate a gas burning appliance indoors for testing purposes without following the safety precautions you are either trying to rig the test results, don't know what you are doing or deliberately doing it to highlight the issues and how unsafe the practice is.

That was the game. They were scare mongering.
A gas stove has never been considered unsafe in an average kitchen. All in the name of profit. They were also recommending atmospheric monitoring in your home. What a fkn joke. :lol:

Weigh a recovered projectile...simple maths tells how much or little can possibly be in animal....somewhere.

Jeez, that has me convinced. I was already pretty paranoid about lead. I generally don’t take front legs of deer Ive shoulder shot, just not worth it for me when it gets fed to the kids and other family members. I really want a clear conscience when giving meat away. Yeah micro particles of lead travelling 30cm all around the wound channel is pretty scary. Even back straps might not be entirely safe. Have bought some copper projos to try at the range, but haven’t got around to it. Good motivation to get onto it. Im not too concerned about killing power, most of my hunting is within 100m a good copper bullet going full tit should get the job done fine but will see how I go. .223 is the new deer hunting cal apparently so a “big” cal in copper should do just fine.

Just stick to what we are comfortable with. I am using copper bullet for hunting only mainly due to the quite a few sausages having lead fragments. Fusion or Accubond (1 of my rifle never like the copper and bad grouping) are the lead bullets I am still comfortable while eating the hunted meat.

I have a laugh when I see the comments in relation to copper vs lead. Has anyone ever seen the result of a small cobblers “copper nail” and what it does to a large tree. It’s far from non toxic.
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For me, the potential exposure for lead in meat is what I would consider a lesser risk than doing things like changing out the target backer/bullet catchers on a range or indoor ranges where there is no passive dust control setup. Things like sandblasting or hot work on old fuel tanks from the leaded fuel days are a higher risk - even things like working on a 1980's Aussie-built classic car where the paint is being restored and leaded paint dust generated - or an older house for that matter are all higher risks than most shooting activities.

Casting lead sinkers is another activity with higher risk...

Things like leaded pipe fittings (older tapware) also carries a risk - as do council water tanks that still have the older white lead sealant in them.

From what I've seen in this in the past it's very difficult to quantify the risk to human health from lead contamination, as different animal species perform differently when impacted by bullets due to different amounts of bone and muscle in the areas where you are likely to aim as well as different calibers, ammunition types, speed of bullet (distance from shooter to target) etc etc. Also, acid levels in the stomach and time it takes for food to pass through the digestive track varies greatly from person to person. Not too sure about how much you can trust the 30cm from the wound for contamination as well, I've seen bits of jacket further away than that... I think it's one of those things that you need to be careful with and examine each piece you take off from around the impact area going out. I hear mince is one of the worst for contamination as well, as the temptation is to carve a bit closer to the hole to extend the mince amount. Likewise, carving bits off for the dogs can be a bit dodgy as well!

Back in the days when meat was worth good coin you only ever took head and neck shots with the trebbly. Chop the head and neck off and job done.

Not shooting related, but when I was much younger I worked in plastics. We were tested for lead (and other heavy metals) in our blood between monthly to 6 monthly because of exposure to lead salts (these will f-you up much faster that elemental Pb). The aim was to keep us under 3 mumol/L. If anyone exceed 5 they were moved to a different line.

What I found most interesting was my levels sat about 2.5 for a long time, until I moved a line where I was working with Pb salts where it come down - because we had to wear fit tested ventilators and nitrile gloves all the time

Bits of lead eating or swallowed ala kids carrying shotgun pellets in mouth and swallowing the odd one or a stray pellet from a duck will do bugger all.
Lead is relatively inert.
Breathe it in as fumes like the old school panel beaters or on a range, vastly different.
Asbestos is similar.
It's not poisonous as such (not that we eat it), but get it in your lungs and it's bad

Originally Posted by csmiffy

Breathe it in as fumes like the old school panel beaters or on a range, vastly different.
get it in your lungs and it's bad

OSH and PPE were pretty much non existent in the panelbeating industry when i started , bog was a very new novelty item , what we couldnt hammer and file was leaded lead was also a staple for fuel tank repairs no masks on top of that the painters would be spraying enamels loaded with iso cyanates they would be wearing masks but the panelbeaters would be breathing in all that crap ...... i get my lungs tested annually .... up until last year i always had the lung capacity of someone half my age but now its catching up with me , probably by the time i retire my lung capacity will be that of a pensioner ..... if im lucky ...and dont get me started on the hearing protection we werent allowed to wear because we had to be able to hear the hammer or slapstick hitting the right spot.

ps ... im not worried about lead bullets