Thread: Lead bullets and their risk to human health

Just stick to what we are comfortable with. I am using copper bullet for hunting only mainly due to the quite a few sausages having lead fragments. Fusion or Accubond (1 of my rifle never like the copper and bad grouping) are the lead bullets I am still comfortable while eating the hunted meat.

Originally Posted by No.3

Not sure that's entirely fair - I know of a couple of lifetime smallbore shooters that have had to change their ideas due to very high lead levels in their testing (both blood and other testing). That was deemed to be purely exposure from indoor target shooting as I understand it - back in the day there was no dust control and the end of a decent shooting session the range was murky with dust haze. If we all went over to alternative ammo, the price would come down I expect due to volumes.

Have you tried smallbore lead free?

Honestly cancer would be preferable to that.

For me, the potential exposure for lead in meat is what I would consider a lesser risk than doing things like changing out the target backer/bullet catchers on a range or indoor ranges where there is no passive dust control setup. Things like sandblasting or hot work on old fuel tanks from the leaded fuel days are a higher risk - even things like working on a 1980's Aussie-built classic car where the paint is being restored and leaded paint dust generated - or an older house for that matter are all higher risks than most shooting activities.

Casting lead sinkers is another activity with higher risk...

Things like leaded pipe fittings (older tapware) also carries a risk - as do council water tanks that still have the older white lead sealant in them.

From what I've seen in this in the past it's very difficult to quantify the risk to human health from lead contamination, as different animal species perform differently when impacted by bullets due to different amounts of bone and muscle in the areas where you are likely to aim as well as different calibers, ammunition types, speed of bullet (distance from shooter to target) etc etc. Also, acid levels in the stomach and time it takes for food to pass through the digestive track varies greatly from person to person. Not too sure about how much you can trust the 30cm from the wound for contamination as well, I've seen bits of jacket further away than that... I think it's one of those things that you need to be careful with and examine each piece you take off from around the impact area going out. I hear mince is one of the worst for contamination as well, as the temptation is to carve a bit closer to the hole to extend the mince amount. Likewise, carving bits off for the dogs can be a bit dodgy as well!

Back in the days when meat was worth good coin you only ever took head and neck shots with the trebbly. Chop the head and neck off and job done.

Not shooting related, but when I was much younger I worked in plastics. We were tested for lead (and other heavy metals) in our blood between monthly to 6 monthly because of exposure to lead salts (these will f-you up much faster that elemental Pb). The aim was to keep us under 3 mumol/L. If anyone exceed 5 they were moved to a different line.

What I found most interesting was my levels sat about 2.5 for a long time, until I moved a line where I was working with Pb salts where it come down - because we had to wear fit tested ventilators and nitrile gloves all the time

Bits of lead eating or swallowed ala kids carrying shotgun pellets in mouth and swallowing the odd one or a stray pellet from a duck will do bugger all.
Lead is relatively inert.
Breathe it in as fumes like the old school panel beaters or on a range, vastly different.
Asbestos is similar.
It's not poisonous as such (not that we eat it), but get it in your lungs and it's bad

my understanding of lead exposure is that the worst of it comes from fumes, ie when melting lead but yes also can imagine a 22 indoor filling up with fumes ex the bore due to friction heat.
Z

Originally Posted by No.3

Not sure that's entirely fair - I know of a couple of lifetime smallbore shooters that have had to change their ideas due to very high lead levels in their testing (both blood and other testing). That was deemed to be purely exposure from indoor target shooting as I understand it - back in the day there was no dust control and the end of a decent shooting session the range was murky with dust haze. If we all went over to alternative ammo, the price would come down I expect due to volumes.

Slightly different scenario to hunting there. Indoor target shooting in a confined space somewhat different to shooting outdoors. The cynic in me says we have to be aware that everything we do these days seems to be hazardous to life.

Originally Posted by NZBeeMan

The podcast talks about fragments visible on x-ray 30cm from the wound channel, also about the lead tested lead content in minced meat where there was none visible with x-ray

I contributed minced deer and goat meat to one of these studies some time ago. Rib and shoulder meat mostly and the results supposedly showed low Pb levels, similar to control/background levels. I’m 63 years old and don’t spend too much time worrying about lead, within reason. Other shit to worry about. I’ve had a few things try to do me in over the years but apparently I’ve been a bad boy somewhere along the line. Supposedly “only the good die young”.

I have a laugh when I see the comments in relation to copper vs lead. Has anyone ever seen the result of a small cobblers “copper nail” and what it does to a large tree. It’s far from non toxic.
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Originally Posted by ZQLewis

my understanding of lead exposure is that the worst of it comes from fumes, ie when melting lead but yes also can imagine a 22 indoor filling up with fumes ex the bore due to friction heat.
Z

If you're getting vaporized lead fumes from melting lead you are heating it far too high. Melting point of lead is a lot lower than vapour point, 621.4F Vaporization happens above 900F.

There is more danger from the chemical dust from spent primers when decapping. Unless the non-toxic ones, they likely have Lead styfanate in them which produces lead oxide when detonated. Fine powdery stuff. You will also see it as white surface powder on old lead, oxidation or rust. Really really bad for you.

Swab tests will show the greatest dangerous levels of lead contamination from reloading are in the immediate bench and floor areas where you decap/deprime brass. Why you don't do it at the kitchen table! Also why you put additive in corncob media for tumbling. Not just for the shine James but to hold the dust down cause that is really poisonous shit to breathe or get on yer hands and into yer mouth. Elemental lead can reside in your muscle tissue, as a slug or bullet, most your life, decades, without raising your blood lead levels. But if you ingest lead oxide powders or vaporized lead its likely a very different and not happy outcome.

Originally Posted by No.3

For me, the potential exposure for lead in meat is what I would consider a lesser risk than doing things like changing out the target backer/bullet catchers on a range or indoor ranges where there is no passive dust control setup. Things like sandblasting or hot work on old fuel tanks from the leaded fuel days are a higher risk - even things like working on a 1980's Aussie-built classic car where the paint is being restored and leaded paint dust generated - or an older house for that matter are all higher risks than most shooting activities.

Casting lead sinkers is another activity with higher risk...

Things like leaded pipe fittings (older tapware) also carries a risk - as do council water tanks that still have the older white lead sealant in them.

From what I've seen in this in the past it's very difficult to quantify the risk to human health from lead contamination, as different animal species perform differently when impacted by bullets due to different amounts of bone and muscle in the areas where you are likely to aim as well as different calibers, ammunition types, speed of bullet (distance from shooter to target) etc etc. Also, acid levels in the stomach and time it takes for food to pass through the digestive track varies greatly from person to person. Not too sure about how much you can trust the 30cm from the wound for contamination as well, I've seen bits of jacket further away than that... I think it's one of those things that you need to be careful with and examine each piece you take off from around the impact area going out. I hear mince is one of the worst for contamination as well, as the temptation is to carve a bit closer to the hole to extend the mince amount. Likewise, carving bits off for the dogs can be a bit dodgy as well!

You more or less covered what I was going to say. My feeling is that while lead in hunted animals poses a risk, the severity of the risk and the likelihood of it significantly impacting anyone is overblown. Lead is dangerous, but not in the minor amounts it's going to be encountered in shot game meat - you might get a fragment, but you probably won't. If you do, is that fragment going to have an effect? Will the next 10 or 20? Probably not.

What is a fact is that in the EU and some US States where they've banned lead projectiles for hunting large game, they're having pretty significant issues getting guns to group based on their twist rate and the longer non-lead projectiles, and they're also seeing a lot more wounded animals.

Basically the effort in targeting lead projectiles is misdirected and misapplied. I suspect a big reason why lead ammunition is being "targeted" is because it's something that people can support banning without it having any impact on them. Basically it's a feel good measure.

At best it's a well-intended waste of time, and at worst it's another way of adding yet another restriction and financial cost in owning and using firearms.

Try shooting lead free air rifles pellets. Virtually no accuracy at all!

Fast yes... but that's all

Talking about inhaling/ingesting bad fumes, that's where the term "mad as a hatter" came from. Hatters in the 18th century used mercury to assist in the felting process when making felt hats. Breath in any/too much mercury fumes and you go stark raving mad.

Basically the effort in targeting lead projectiles is misdirected and misapplied. I suspect a big reason why lead ammunition is being "targeted" is because it's something that people can support banning without it having any impact on them. Basically it's a feel good measure.

The podcast has nothing to do with banning lead in ammo, but is more about making an informed choice as a hunter and consumer of wild meat