Thread: Nelson Lakes getting the Green rain over 33000ha in July...better get into it.

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

Have you tried telling a rat or a stoat that it has to live in a "balanced environment" with mohua or kakariki ?

Have you ever been into native bush never 1080d and heard the beautiful dawn chourus? Slogged up onto the tops and had the kea pulling the tape from your barrel while you glassed distant Deer or Chamois or Thar? And then been back into those areas that had been in a balance of "pests" and natives and seen the results not just once but over years.
I have.

I am not amused.

Moa were major herbivore forest browsers but wiped out for human food and ultimately their bones ground up for fertilizer.
Stoats and weasels and cats are not herbivores and do not take 1080 cereal baits. The by kill of those is minor through secondary poisoning.
Rats are omnivores and can be effectively controlked by bait stations and traps, as can the mustelids and cats. Stoats get sore (actually flattened) heads and no by kill of birds. DoC and Ospri have created a myth in order to sustain their respective sick bureacratic funding and mismanage our wild game assets AND at the expense of farmer and taxpayer levies.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Have you ever been into native bush never 1080d and heard the beautiful dawn chourus? Slogged up onto the tops and had the kea pulling the tape from your barrel while you glassed distant Deer or Chamois or Thar? And then been back into those areas that had been in a balance of "pests" and natives and seen the results not just once but over years.
I have.

I am not amused.

The science does not agree with you.

Mohua were one of the most prolific birds in our beech forests... Read the threats and conservation, also read where they are making a comeback in areas where effective rat and stoat control is taking place. 1080 is effective rat and stoat control.

Yellowhead | New Zealand Birds Online



Here is something from many many years ago where you can see the decline long before the use of 1080. Read what was there..and now read the reason for the decline.

http://docs.niwa.co.nz/library/public/OPNZDOCNM81.pdf

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

The science does not agree with you.

Mohua were one of the most prolific birds in our beech forests... Read the threats and conservation, also read where they are making a comeback in areas where effective rat and stoat control is taking place. 1080 is effective rat and stoat control.

Yellowhead | New Zealand Birds Online



Here is something from many many years ago where you can see the decline long before the use of 1080. Read what was there..and now read the reason for the decline.

http://docs.niwa.co.nz/library/public/OPNZDOCNM81.pdf

The "science" will say whatever the money wants it to say.

The other link is too much to look at on my phone....but I will look at it.

So if Poison the whole valley, the ones from the others side will re colonise ...so if we do both valleys then the ones from the next range will recolonise ...so if we do the whole country the surviours will recolonise ...seems to me like we have no end game! Except then fact that 50% of tagged kea got wiped out in the last 1080 campaign ...so rats survive and breed whilst kea die ...hmmm

Regardless. Trapping targeted spp is far more ecologically responsible. Aerial broadcast of a "kill all" poison is nothing other than grossly irresponsible abuse of the environment. Sustained trapping will do the job far better than use of sustained repetative indiscriminate poisoning AND with large socio economic benifits to communities.

Originally Posted by Woody

Moa were major herbivore forest browsers but wiped out for human food and ultimately their bones ground up for fertilizer.
Stoats and weasels and cats are not herbivores and do not take 1080 cereal baits. The by kill of those is minor through secondary poisoning.
Rats are omnivores and can be effectively controlked by bait stations and traps, as can the mustelids and cats. Stoats get sore (actually flattened) heads and no by kill of birds. DoC and Ospri have created a myth in order to sustain their respective sick bureacratic funding and mismanage our wild game assets AND at the expense of farmer and taxpayer levies.

Secondary poisoning of mustelids being minor ,i call that bullshit, this report was done in 2009 and poisoning operations are getting more effective all the time, from the days when they first "plastered" the countryside with massive doses to gps systems delivering smaller doses and less poison per bait.
The science of how 1080 works

I dont know how much predator trapping you do but i am involved with SEVERAL predator trapping groups and i can assure you you are talking absolute bollocks when it comes to running traps in South Island beech forest, not just in but particularly in mast years.. Getting the labour to clear the traps is the major problem.

Bait stations ? what sort of bait are you advocating ?

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

The "science" will say whatever the money wants it to say.

The other link is too much to look at on my phone....but I will look at it.

I saw this the other day re your science, money...

Even on Gilligans Island they asked advice from the professor and not the millionaire... i will go with the science everytime.

Can i just qualify my point of view.. I am no apologist for DOCs poisoning programme, I firmly believe they dont get it right all the time and have had first hand experience of such more than once.

Is Gilligans island the doc textbook then? There had been a decades long very successfultrapping operation in the Nth Urewera where 1080 was not used. It was embarressing to DoC who ultimately shut it down.
As far as labour is concerned; pay good money in secured jobs and problem solved, even in very rugged terrain. Go read Joff Thompsons books for a starter. Too many blind pussies with obsessed biased notions and extremist green aims in DoC heirarchy. Get rid of them and replace with MEN and WOMEN with a trapping mindset, fully funded long term and then witness a successful change for the better. Amongst other things it will create productive careers instead of propaganda tv clips.

Originally Posted by stingray

So if Poison the whole valley, the ones from the others side will re colonise ...so if we do both valleys then the ones from the next range will recolonise ...so if we do the whole country the surviours will recolonise ...seems to me like we have no end game! Except then fact that 50% of tagged kea got wiped out in the last 1080 campaign ...so rats survive and breed whilst kea die ...hmmm

No rats die with 1080 as you know... Yes 50% of the tagged kea died from 1080 and that is a big embarrassing loss . I think as i have said previously DOC dont get it right all the time. There is plenty of information though that would suggest that the remaining kea will breed succesfully [they will bloody need to] to make up the losses. To do nothing is to ensure the failure of the kea population. You can see in the link from 2009 to 2014 ONLY 2% of nests in areas without predator control were successful, those figures will ensure the demise of the kea population !
https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/tia...g-results/kea/

Originally Posted by Woody

Is Gilligans island the doc textbook then? There had been a decades long very successfultrapping operation in the Nth Urewera where 1080 was not used. It was embarressing to DoC who ultimately shut it down.
As far as labour is concerned; pay good money in secured jobs and problem solved, even in very rugged terrain. Go read Joff Thompsons books for a starter. Too many blind pussies with obsessed biased notions and extremist green aims in DoC heirarchy. Get rid of them and replace with MEN and WOMEN with a trapping mindset, fully funded long term and then witness a successful change for the better. Amongst other things it will create productive careers instead of propaganda tv clips.

Gilligan Island the text book... good comeback lol

Better to ask the scientist or the guys on the forum ??? Nah i will stick with the science. when a rat can live in 50sqm in the bush trapping just aint going to happen , way to expensive , way to ineffective and mice will drive you nuts stealing baits , tripping traps etc

Still seems the odd chappy cant see through the fog,ah well maybe they've passed the point of no return just like DOC.

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

No rats die with 1080 as you know... Yes 50% of the tagged kea died from 1080 and that is a big embarrassing loss . I think as i have said previously DOC dont get it right all the time. There is plenty of information though that would suggest that the remaining kea will breed succesfully [they will bloody need to] to make up the losses. To do nothing is to ensure the failure of the kea population. You can see in the link from 2009 to 2014 ONLY 2% of nests in areas without predator control were successful, those figures will ensure the demise of the kea population !
https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/tia...g-results/kea/

The unfortunate thing with that linked study is that there is no science. Kea nest high, high above the range of cats and rats and stoats. There is no prey up in the rocks to attract predators, so the Kea nest unmolested until poisoned. I am sure that a bush area with only rock outcrops for nesting can be found for the purpose of justifying predation numbers, to that end the 'study' doesn't say where the nests where that were monitored but I bet they weren't way above the bushline.

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

Have you tried telling a rat or a stoat that it has to live in a "balanced environment" with mohua or kakariki ?

No it's like telling a Kea not to eat that dead poisoned carcass! I'm not going to pretend to know the science of any of it but I do know right from wrong like dont let kids play with Tide pods!! I know Poison kills in high doses but whats it do in lower doses over years of exposure, science will do studys over decades of research and find it's effects but like I've heard the DOC doesn't always get it right, so I'm just saying it's not worth the risk move on to plan B.