Thread: NZ Alpine Hunter :Injury, First Aid training & gear survey (research)

Good Morning,

Just letting you know so far there has been 39 respondents to part 1 of the survey and 31 respondents to part 2.

I'm really pleased and there are some interesting trends starting to show.

Thank you to all who have taken part and please mention it to anyone else you might think would be prepared to help out aswell.

Further to Outdoorlad's suggestion I am stoked to tell you that NZ Hunter magazine will be publishing the surveys in a future edition.
Thank you for suggesting that. Which other magazines would be worth approaching?


cheers,
Malin

Nz wilderness? Just go in to your local dairy and write down the ones that'll applicable

Gidday Dr M
Nice to have you here and an interesting topic
These Surveys could be a pilot but there are too few Q to get worthwhile info.
Other relevant factors are:
Professional training & experience
Death or injury of friends
Preventive and Risk management strategies eg alpine skills course, use of helmet Ice axe + crampon
Awareness of dangers other than falls eg rock fall, river, avalanche, hypothermia

What is a Pelvic binder?
Who uses haemostat outside the military ?
are these questions to identify survivalist and militia member respondents?

There is a void with the mountain Safety Council out of action. But you need a clearer focus and more detail. These preliminary surveys wouldn't have enough meat to go in NZ Hunter or Wilderness. FMC bulletin runs a Back country accidents column where good data could be published.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

Gidday Dr M
Nice to have you here and an interesting topic
These Surveys could be a pilot but there are too few Q to get worthwhile info.
Other relevant factors are:
Professional training & experience
Death or injury of friends
Preventive and Risk management strategies eg alpine skills course, use of helmet Ice axe + crampon
Awareness of dangers other than falls eg rock fall, river, avalanche, hypothermia

What is a Pelvic binder?
Who uses haemostat outside the military ?
are these questions to identify survivalist and militia member respondents?

There is a void with the mountain Safety Council out of action. But you need a clearer focus and more detail. These preliminary surveys wouldn't have enough meat to go in NZ Hunter or Wilderness. FMC bulletin runs a Back country accidents column where good data could be published.

Good Morning Bagheera and thank you for your kind welcoming words.

I totally agree with you, the 10 questions in each survey are only just scratching the surface of the fact finding I would like to carry out.
However, I have learned from a previous outdoor industry engagement survey that short, quick and simple is the best way to capture big numbers or respondents. The people who have more of an interest will then contacted via their submitted emails, either for more data collection or just with the result of the survey if that is what they have requested.

It is sad and interesting that you have mentioned death of friends, since this is a subject which I have spent a lot of time on and I have constructed a training module called "Death training for outdoor instructors: care of the dead and dying patient, their rescuers and survivors" This is not part of a NZQA standards unit and as yet I have not found a training provider who is willing to teach it. Within the Adventure Activities Operators sector in NZ death is still very much a taboo subject, both because of commercial interest (bad for business) and due to the deep ingrained PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) within the senior echelons of the peak bodies of outdoor industry.

This module came about form the work I presented at the Paramedicine Australasia International Conference in 2016 : Dying for adventure:How do NZ outdoor instructors manage death of Adventure Activities participants ?"

If you are interested you can find the survey, the presentation and the research paper on my website

https://drmwildernessemc.wordpress.com/


A pelvic binder/ pelvic sling/ pelvic wrap can be considered a "tourniquet" to stop the often fatal bleeding which occurs within a fractured pelvis caused by a fall the height twice the persons body length, i.e. roughly above 3 metres.
It is one of the very few interventions (apart from preventing hypothermia) which can actually save a life of an injured casualty by an "in situ " rescuer ( i.e. a rescuer who is there when it happens rather than responds to a distress call and has advanced expertise and equipment)

In penetrating injuries haemostatic agents and tourniquets (effective ones, correctly deployed) save lives. They are now featured in the NZ Resuscitation Council guidelines for use by first aiders in life threatening bleeding.The only barrier to being used by recreational or commercial hunters should possibly be cost, not lack of awareness or not having practiced simulated situations (with cheaper substitutes) of what it is like to pack a deep wound.

Often "preppers" and Tactical Combat Care defence force personnel are the most useful "in situ" responders to have with you in an emergency situation. It is however important to know what actions are suitable in a civilian peacetime casualty and this may not be directly extrapolated from armed combat, but this is a whole other conversation, one which I would be more than happy to have.

Early on in my data collection for the project mentioned above I was in contact with Johnny Mulherron of FMC Back country accident and he was very supportive of my work.
It is still very early days on the Alpine Hunter Injury, First Aid training and gear research.
I never have preconceived ideas of what the results or outcomes might be, I like my research projects to develop organically.

My other projects to date is ICAR checklist Avalanche patient resuscitation workshop I ran with Hilary from Horizons at the Southern Hemisphere Alpine conference in Christchurch earlier this year and I am currently collaborating with LandSAR, NZPolice and Civil Defence developing the NZ National Accidental Hypothermia Strategy.
I also recently collaborated with NZRA on a webinar/podcast on PTSD and critical incident stress prevention, recognition and management.
I am not telling you these things in order to blow my own trumpet, that is not my style, but more as an introduction to my interests and wider grasp of outdoor specific concepts.

You could check my twitter account if you would like t see more of my work I am DrM@wildernessEMC.
That account also has some rare disease and other emergency care stuff on it.

Am I correct in thinking that you might be one of the hunters wiling to collaborate with further fact finding in the future, Bagheera?
It would be great if that were the case.

Kind regards,
Malin

Good Morning!

Just a quick heads up:

To date you have helped with 61 responses to the injury survey and 49 to the first aid training & gear survey.

That is great, and over 10% to the total numbers I need for statistical significance.

I am getting some great accounts of misadventure and bravery, some really valid comments and some great quotes which I am sure to use in the final write up.

I am also very encouraged that many of you want to either be contacted with the results or assist with further fact finding and advisory roles.

Thanks heaps!

Malin

Hi Malin
Thanks for your thoughtful and informative reply.
Sorry I don’t have time to discuss more now but you have my email address.
Apologies if my post came across as sceptical; it’s a big topic you’re looking into.
Thanks for explaining about the pelvic binder ...

Hi Malin
Really interested by what you talked about with the haemostatic agents as it is something i could potentially add to the first aid kit.

Cheers Matiu

Originally Posted by keenbloke

Hi Malin
Really interested by what you talked about with the haemostatic agents as it is something i could potentially add to the first aid kit.

Cheers Matiu

You can get Israeli bandages with hemostatic agent in them, they are probably the easiest to use. Also comes in powder sachets that you sprinkle on a wound. Have also come across a syringe that you stick into a deep puncture wound and insert the powder that way....

Have never used it myself but carry a couple of the sachets and an Israeli around in my day bag kit

Hi!

Thanks for the interest in haemostat agents.


Celox and Quick Clot are popular but several other brands are available.
Made from chitin (crab and shrimp shell ) they promote blood clotting. Small packets the size of a teabag are nowhere near enough for major bleeding, the most effective is bandages impregnated with the product which can then be used to pack a wound or applied with direct pressure.
They should not be removed until the patient is in the operating theatre, because once the clots have formed if they get removed it is much harder to create a subsequent clot. They are not cheap ($83 for one Celox z bandage but can be difference between life and death) (One NZ trustworthy outlet is Pharmaco online)

Life threatening bleeding in groin or armpit may need forceful pressure, by a rescuer placing their bent knee and pushing really hard!

Cheers,

Malin

I carry 3 x sachets of the Celox when hunting with others or participating in team events such as driven hunts. I don't usually carry them when hunting alone because I doubt I could handle using them correctly on myself. They weren't cheap but they weren't expensive either but the best thing is they're light and take up no room.

I just pray I never have the need to use them.

Hi,
Hope you are all enjoying the warm weather. I am personally more of a winter person.
Just a quick update: Thanks to all of you who have made 87 submissions to the injury part of the survey and 72 to the first aid training part of the survey.

I am delighted with the high level of interest you all have for the topics and any of you who have entered email addresses will be getting feedback or further surveys (whichever you specified) in due course.

If there are any questions you would like me to answer sooner, please let me know in this thread and I will be more than happy to do so.

it would be interesting to know what us hunters/shooters consider a minimum first aid kit. maybe in the next questionnaire ? i knew one guy who used to carry tampons for bullet wounds !

Originally Posted by gonetropo

it would be interesting to know what us hunters/shooters consider a minimum first aid kit. maybe in the next questionnaire ? i knew one guy who used to carry tampons for bullet wounds !

Insulation tape and a cellphone!

Hi gonetropo,

You might be surprised but he would not be alone in doing so, a few of the survey answers include tampons in the first aid kits.

The principle is that as the tampon absorbed blood it expands and exerts pressure on the bleeding pint and if enough pressure it might be able to stop it. It has certainly been an accepted practice for stopping simple nosebleeds (from the front of the nose as opposed to arterial bleed from the back of he nose which is more common in elderly patients with uncontrolled high blood pressure).THe only problem with using a tampon for nosebleed is that once it is removed the clot tends to come away and the bleeding restarts. Thus, there are now specially made nasal balloons made for this purpose but the survey respondent who carries a condom is on the right track with that.Blowing it up to get the right pressure whilst inserted in the patients nostril might cause a few giggles though.....

A tampon with Celox/ Quick clot covering it liberally is not a bad idea for small deeply penetrating wounds.

( there is now on the market a syringe filled with a quid of sponge which expands and exerts a lot of pressure called the Xstat 12 or Xstat30. They became available in 2015 but are so far really a tactical combat piece of gear, maybe 5-10 years from now they will be part of our first aid kits.)


I am getting lots of people telling me their first aid contents and I will definitely analyse that thoroughly, most of you are pretty well kitted out, and let anyone who is interest know the results

msc used to do an outdoors one which was good...biggest thing is to eed out all the crap that isnt relevant and get tutor who speaks MAN SPEAK....eg Selwin M from Timaru explained shock some thing like this..
brain needs blood and cant get enough so thinks...what can I shut down first??? hands and feet not vital thay first=cold extrematies
nah not enough yet.... speed up heart and breathing....
nah not enough yet...shut down puku....starts vomiting
made much more sense than the boring monotones used by every one else doing courses.