Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Subsidised access flights for hunters are unfortunately very poor management economics compared to subsidised WARO, especially for deer more so than tahr or goats.

Originally Posted by gimp

I did, I will reserve judgement until I see what their actual proposal was and talk to some people.



Commercial interests are unfortunately highly over-represented in the tahr foundation.


In tahr management we actually have a good statutory management plan in the HTCP, it has just never been enacted as intended. Some of the finer details require tweaking (IDs, monitoring, fleshing out some definitions) but the general overview is a great example of a sensible management plan, it's just unfortunate that DOC, green groups, and hunters never managed to work together to realise it.

Yes from what I read of it it seemed reasonable just poorly enacted and also somewhat easily warped to be used in a manner other than intended (like many things legal).

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

once upon a time when you got your 2 week permit to hunt an area you turned it over and filled in a kill return....BUT folks didnt trust DOC so they wouldnt fill them in....we had nice chap from DOC at a NZDA meeting in Timaru...I looked at figures for previous year from my favourite hunting block and informed him...I have shot half the deer and ALL the chammy from that block according to your figures...and Im not that good of hunter...soon afterwards the permit system changed.

my point is people tell lies because of lack of trust....
the fear the cullers or WARO will be sent in if numbers look too high mean they will under report kills..lots of kills must mean lots of animals....
how you combat this Im not sure.MAYBE a token $10 for left jawbone????? with 2-3 random higher prize draws yearly....might get buy in....

I too thought some payment for jaws etc. The issue is too low and noone bothers and high enough and you will start getting people abuse it by either shooting the shit out of areas which isnt nessasarily what we want or the more obvious is that guys start smashing big numbers on farms etc and claiming its public land etc.

Ive heard same argument against possum bounty...but at end of day,a dead animal,no matter where it comes from is one less out there to breed.

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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Some quite informative posts here.

Don’t want to be the pedantic nana here but no one called one a cunt...yet. Just a voiced opinion however misguided, misjudged blah blah.

Also not cool to pick on people’s grammar, punctuation etc etc. Yes I know it makes it harder to read/understand but sure we can be adults about it...

Keep up the good work.

As you were


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Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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I am sure that your invitation to join MENSA will be in the mail promptly

Haha thanks. Apologies for ruining the thread too.

Originally Posted by tiroahunta

Don’t want to be the pedantic nana here but no one called one a cunt...yet.

A good and factually correct point.

Would the following work as a proposal: Trophy producing areas are identified - for example the Rakaia to Whitcomb pass. To hunt these blocks a special 'Managed Trophy Animal' annual permit is required costing fifty dollars. The permit must be carried and hunting in the area without a permit will incur a fine of five thousand dollars. Strict conditions will apply to the types of animals taken and those holding a permit will be required to remove a take of hinds.
I believe that the average meat hunter would not bother when other open access areas are available.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Would the following work as a proposal: Trophy producing areas are identified - for example the Rakaia to Whitcomb pass. To hunt these blocks a special 'Managed Trophy Animal' annual permit is required costing fifty dollars. The permit must be carried and hunting in the area without a permit will incur a fine of five thousand dollars. Strict conditions will apply to the types of animals taken and those holding a permit will be required to remove a take of hinds.
I believe that the average meat hunter would not bother when other open access areas are available.

It could work, and is actually probably technically possible under current legislation, if:

You included an evidence based management plan to improve ecological outcomes over the current management, and it passed scrutiny by DOCs technical advisors, it would likely need to include detail of management tools, expected results supported by evidence, monitoring to determine outcomes, contingencies if management tools failed to meet outcomes, etc

The legal aspects of the plan passed scrutiny (And probably legal challenge from Green Groups) under variously the Wild Animal Control Act, the Conservation Act, the Reserves Act, various Conservation Management Strategies, etc.

Due process was followed in implementing it allowing consultation with the correct parties, and there was adequate social license to manage an area with the word "trophy" within a city block of the name

You could get buy in from the right people of influence to actually agree to implement it

It could generate enough revenue to cover the cost of administering, ensuring compliance, etc

There weren't any risks to DOC legally, ecologically, financially, or in terms of losing control of management if it failed

Commercial interests (WARO) weren't influential enough to shut it down




I still think that starting from a trophy based perspective is putting the cart before the horse.

Some really good posts in the last few pages (the only ones I've read) .....and a number of represent quite a bit of effort, too.

FWIW, I'd add that not only does DoC have an institutional antipathy towards introduced animals, they have one towards hunters too. Of course there are exceptions, but broadly speaking I think that's correct. So that's a further obstacle to meaningful engagement.

I had hoped that Kiri Allan might have taken a broader view than the previous Minister, but now she's on sick leave (and best wishes to her) I don't hold the same hopes with Ayesha Verrall.......

Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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I think this post falls pretty well under the last catagory don't forget to include it. ��

I think that the concept of HOSI under the Game Council is an excellent concept. Because it starts from ground zero by firstly just simply identifying herds (or sub populations) that ought to have some sort of wrap around protective status, and then through consultation, data and science gathering develop a strategy to protect and grow the herd giving regards to a broad spectrum of recreational users and the environment. Or at least that's how I hope it works.

Beginning from a highly defined end game based purely on the needs of trophy hunters (an example of being too heavenly to be of any earthly use) and then working backwards to put it in place is a recipe for both resentment and disaster.

The choices are evolution, revolution or planned incremental change. Evolution has got us to where we are so has little merit. Revolution is for the zelots and will leave the crowd behind. Im for the latter (planned incremental change) and taking as many hunters and users with it as possible. It will take patience because it won't happen over night.

Originally Posted by tiroahunta

Some quite informative posts here.

Don’t want to be the pedantic nana here but no one called one a cunt...yet. Just a voiced opinion however misguided, misjudged blah blah.

Also not cool to pick on people’s grammar, punctuation etc etc. Yes I know it makes it harder to read/understand but sure we can be adults about it...

Keep up the good work.

As you were


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I'm not picking on grammar mines not perfect I can read misplet words fine. But if you can't understand what's being said except only the odd bit then it's useless. It's really as simple as reading your own post aloud and seeing if it makes sense. If do it for my own posts often. That and seperating sentences with full stops not because grammar but because it makes words easy to understand. A simple example of grammar being important is "I messed up Grandma" and "I messed up, Grandma" one suggested you beat your grandma ones suggests you told your Grandma you messed up. Grammar isn't important but the being coherent is.

I in no way condone grammar bashing its not needed especially since many are typing on phone screens but that's not what was intended.

And your right no one was called a cunt but its wasn't a generalised opinion it was pointed and aimed to insult.
Saying something as simple as I don't think these things make sense. It makes it seem like a blah blah blah. There was no respect in the post so he got none back.