Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by blip

it comes down to the operator not the caliber.....

Operator all good here blip.
We all make a marginal shot some time in our lives.
If you never have taken a marginal shot good on ya.

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I need to get busy as got a few 6.5 to load!

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I've had some marginal shots with the .223. They still ended up in the freezer. Much the same as I noticed with anything else. They look sick and you shoot them again, preferably in the right place not the guts

Other than recoil, what technical advantage would say a 88eldm have over a 145eldx sent at roughly the same speed, around 27-2800fps?

What advantage would the .277 actually have to justify the disadvantages?

My .223 loads cost about the same as a 145gr eldx projectile alone. 25% the recoil. I can make 300m headshots and watch the impact through the scope. It kills well.

How many rounds in a session or a year are people shooting with magnums or .270s to build proficiency? The .223 is so cheap to shoot, not even remotely fatiguing, and the barrel life I so long that I consider shooting it basically free. I have a wide range of good bullets I can choose. For a .270, the ELDX might be just about the extent of it? Bergers at $2 apiece?


Hit probability due exterior ballistics is about the same.

Recoil while the bullet is still in the barrel causes poor real-world accuracy. Particularly from any position off a flat range. The more you can reduce that, the better. If people are taking the time to set up solid positions and pick their shots with night guns and getting good results, good work. I'm a bad shot so I'll take all the advantages I can get.

Originally Posted by gimp

What advantage would the .277 actually have to justify the disadvantages?

My .223 loads cost about the same as a 145gr eldx projectile alone. 25% the recoil. I can make 300m headshots and watch the impact through the scope. It kills well.

How many rounds in a session or a year are people shooting with magnums or .270s to build proficiency? The .223 is so cheap to shoot, not even remotely fatiguing, and the barrel life I so long that I consider shooting it basically free. I have a wide range of good bullets I can choose. For a .270, the ELDX might be just about the extent of it? Bergers at $2 apiece?


Hit probability due exterior ballistics is about the same.

Recoil while the bullet is still in the barrel causes poor real-world accuracy. Particularly from any position off a flat range. The more you can reduce that, the better. If people are taking the time to set up solid positions and pick their shots with night guns and getting good results, good work. I'm a bad shot so I'll take all the advantages I can get.

Just wondering if you have ever shot a Jaw of as it does happen.


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At close range (10m) with a 6.5, yes. Tracked for an hour in the dark. Not at a longer range. You have to be very selective about your conditions and position if you are going to do such things.

Originally Posted by andyanimal31

Operator all good here blip.
We all make a marginal shot some time in our lives.
If you never have taken a marginal shot good on ya.

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ive done my fair share of marginal shots

Cost? That one always surprises me in regard to ammo. You drive out there in your 4wd ($40000 plus $1ish per km) in your flash hunting gear ($700 boots etc) nice rifle plus glass ($5000) bino’s, rangefinder, thermal, and who knows what else and then people buy cheap shitty ammo. Or in this case site a small cost saving in the hunt (not associated paper punching) as a tangible benefit.

This conversation seems to have moved to more about the projectile than the cartridge.
Why don't you guys run these big projectiles in something like a 220 Swift or 22 250. And really light them up?

Speaking of cost. The great thing about the bigger calibers is - you dont need to use a new premium projectile to achieve the same result. A good old cup and core will do exactly what the new 22 calibre ones are being touted as achieving. I havnt lost an animal yet with the speer hotcores im useing.

Originally Posted by gimp

This is a good illustration of the limited predictive value of energy in wound size. Same construction similar speed different diameter and energy.


106gr ELDM 6mm at 2625fps. 1622 FTLB





147gr ELDM 6.5mm at 2693fps. 2353 FTLB.


Attachment 258212


30% more energy with the 6.5mm bullet but the permanent cavity (the important characteristic) isn't any bigger.

Calibrated ballistic gel is used for such tests precisely because it closely represents results in actual tissue.

Had a think about this one last night. The larger projectile is shedding/ Imparting energy faster due to bigger surface area. That seems pretty intuitive?

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Cost? That one always surprises me in regard to ammo. You drive out there in your 4wd ($40000 plus $1ish per km) in your flash hunting gear ($700 boots etc) nice rifle plus glass ($5000) bino’s, rangefinder, thermal, and who knows what else and then people buy cheap shitty ammo. Or in this case site a small cost saving in the hunt (not associated paper punching) as a tangible benefit.

Sunk costs versus ongoing costs I guess.
I can't make .223 work as a cheaper option than my 6.5CM because the 129gr ammo I favour (on price) is the same price as 75gr match .223 ammo, so no saving at all. If I buy reloading gear in 30 years I might break even...

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Speaking of cost. The great thing about the bigger calibers is - you dont need to use a new premium projectile to achieve the same result. A good old cup and core will do exactly what the new 22 calibre ones are being touted as achieving. I havnt lost an animal yet with the speer hotcores im useing.

To be fair, the heavy .223 bullets are all cup and core and relatively cheap ($70/100). In fact that is their strength. OK penetration and frangible. Nice mushrooms are out, organ damage is in.

.270 Speer hot cores are $75//100

Originally Posted by Flyblown

In the back blocks of NZ, on rough hill country farms aways from people that worry about stuff like this, more deer are shot with the .223 Remington every year than all the other cartridges put together.

I would probably agree. When I’m not out hunting ( up to 4 days a week, usually with 223 ) I’m back on the spanners servicing four wheelers/sxs’s from around top of South Island. After talking with operators and observing ammo/ spent cases on machines I would suspect calibers used are 223, 308, 270,243, 7.62x39, 22 magnum ( small game maybe) then oddballs like WSM’s in that order. It’s amazing what you find hidden away on these machines at times.