Thread: A question for the doubters

when he starts deliberately pissing on ya leg ya will know Maraoa

Heres how I roll with it. Next weekend we are "hunting" on the challenge course at Sparrowhawk. I know shots will tend to be longish, 400M or so. I know getting closer, which is AWAYS the best option is not doable there (and in some hunting terrain too but not usually). There is a very high chance there will be wind, prossibly quite a bit. Will I take a 223, no. Will I take a 6mmCM, maybe. Will I take the 6.5-284 - you betcha! If all I had was a 223, would I take it, you brycha!

Originally Posted by Tentman

Heres how I roll with it. Next weekend we are "hunting" on the challenge course at Sparrowhawk. I know shots will tend to be longish, 400M or so. I know getting closer, which is AWAYS the best option is not doable there (and in some hunting terrain too but not usually). There is a very high chance there will be wind, prossibly quite a bit. Will I take a 223, no. Will I take a 6mmCM, maybe. Will I take the 6.5-284 - you betcha! If all I had was a 223, would I take it, you brycha!

Those who shoot large cartridges very well from field positions without practice can show up and smoke those of us who need to practice and use affordable cartridges that are pleasant to shoot!

I'm certain there's shooters here that could hunt reds effectively and ethically with a 55gr .223 fmj... I do not at all have the confidence in my ability to do so and wouldn't even attempt. That's why I use a 6.5prc for long (factory load Hornady 147gr eld-x) or .308win for short (new build, yet to work out). The last time I was out I got two reds with the 6.5prc within 10s of each other, I thought I missed the first one as it just disappeared from view, I saw the second go down. Turns out the first one was pole axed so hard it dropped where it was standing before my eye even register it moved, it was there and then it wasn't.

Originally Posted by ojc2

I'm certain there's shooters here that could hunt reds effectively and ethically with a 55gr .223 fmj... I do not at all have the confidence in my ability to do so and wouldn't even attempt. That's why I use a 6.5prc for long (factory load Hornady 147gr eld-x) or .308win for short (new build, yet to work out). The last time I was out I got two reds with the 6.5prc within 10s of each other, I thought I missed the first one as it just disappeared from view, I saw the second go down. Turns out the first one was pole axed so hard it dropped where it was standing before my eye even register it moved, it was there and then it wasn't.

This is a major advantage of light recoiling cartridges. You can see the impact and know when & where you have hit your deer.

Originally Posted by gimp

This is a major advantage of light recoiling cartridges. You can see the impact and know when & where you have hit your deer.

I wouldn't call the 6.5prc high recoiling, it just knocked the deer down so quick I thought it had taken off, optics had barely moved.

Well just shot a deer the dog took me too, so a bit of success. And I think stocky you are missing the point a bit. 10 shoot group? The animals I shoot at usually run after the first shot if I don’t get it right and in a hunting situation you don’t need to be inch precise. Even on a small deer the lethal area on a shoulder is at least 6 inches across.And 3200fps that’s at the muzzle and accubonds do open up nicely they just don’t fly to pieces. And lastly if you have a look at the excellent article on page one that gimp put up you’ll note that wound channel is created by the pressure in tissue that is created by the bullet passing through the tissue. You can’t really have too much penetration

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Well just shot a deer the dog took me too, so a bit of success. And I think stocky you are missing the point a bit. 10 shoot group? The animals I shoot at usually run after the first shot if I don’t get it right and in a hunting situation you don’t need to be inch precise. Even on a small deer the lethal area on a shoulder is at least 6 inches across.And 3200fps that’s at the muzzle and accubonds do open up nicely they just don’t fly to pieces. And lastly if you have a look at the excellent article on page one that gimp put up you’ll note that wound channel is created by the pressure in tissue that is created by the bullet passing through the tissue. You can’t really have too much penetration

The 10 shot group is because it's more indicative of what you and your rifle can do over say 10 different shots on animals (actually this is in your favor as its in one sitting. Ass long as you like for your barrel to cool down if you feel the need). Don't even stress about the wgaer just go try it in your own presence and you will see what I mean.

You can't have too much but it can come at the cost of recoil, shootability, and width of the wound. Also the stretch is often temporary if nothing cuts it whilst stretched. Think of a rubber band. You can stretch it hugely but if you nick it the stretch becomes permanent.

The reason people miss is they aren't that good and that's exaggerated by recoil.
Anyway the point if the thread was that the 223 with heavy calibre match type projectiles is a plenty capable big game hunting rifle inside the ranges that most hunters should be limiting themselves in the field.

Originally Posted by Stocky

The 10 shot group is because it's more indicative of what you and your rifle can do over say 10 different shots on animals (actually this is in your favor as its in one sitting. Ass long as you like for your barrel to cool down if you feel the need). Don't even stress about the wgaer just go try it in your own presence and you will see what I mean.

You can't have too much but it can come at the cost of recoil, shootability, and width of the wound. Also the stretch is often temporary if nothing cuts it whilst stretched. Think of a rubber band. You can stretch it hugely but if you nick it the stretch becomes permanent.

The reason people miss is they aren't that good and that's exaggerated by recoil.
Anyway the point if the thread was that the 223 with heavy calibre match type projectiles is a plenty capable big game hunting rifle inside the ranges that most hunters should be limiting themselves in the field.

I fully agree with the accuracy of the 223, I haven’t been able to shoot a 308 as well as my 223.
4 shots at 50m with 55g and 64g mix, bipod and no bags.
With a better rest setup and one ammo they’re normally all touching at 50m and not far different at 100m.
But hey I only shoot to 200, hence the close sighting range.

Alright lads, let’s get after this. I’m going to try and sun it all up, in what will be my last post in this thread.

From what I’ve seen (as a generalisation) hunters in this country are average riflemen. The general hunter fires fuck all ammo a year, and if it’s anymore than just the deer they shoot, then it’s at a flat range usually from a bench. To be truly effective in the feild we need to be shooting a LOT more, and that’s where the .223 comes in. I’m aiming to fire 500-1000 rounds annually, all in order to be the most effective and efficient shot I can be. This is in the feild in simulated hunting conditions. That is a far cheaper not to mention less fatiguing and potentially recoil inducing prospect with a 224 centrefire than with a 270/308/magnum.

Someone mentioned ‘owing it to the animals we hunt’. Shit yeah we do, and that’s why I practice, practice, practice. Me being a better marksman with the gun I’ve put thousands of rounds through, is going to end up with less rodeos than if I went by the convention wisdom and shot a 7mm RM like everyone else. I hunt solo and do spotting my own hits (or misses) is only possible at a recoil level that tops out at probably a 6 creed. The higher the recoil of the gun you shoot, the MORE practice that is required to get get good.

Barrel life on a .223 is incredible, and I can make the ammo for a lot less than the 6.5 creed in the safe. Plus, it has sufficient ability to kill the game I’m after out to serious distances. That- is the reason why I choose to hunt with a .224 centrefire. (I have a 22 creed also)

Right, so let’s look at optimised killing. Putting a heavy TMK or ELD-M in a .224 optimises it for making animals die. The first deer my mate saw shot with my .223 couldn’t believe the damage it caused. He commented that the mess was worse than his .308 made. That’s because most of the ammo that some of you guys are using is not optimised. Put a heavy frangible bullet in there, and I bet you’ll be complaining about the damage and wastage of meat. You’re shooting a big gun, but it has been restricted in its capability. You’re rolling around in a V8 with 1/2 the plug leads off, and I’m in a 4 cylinder at peak tune.

There’s a bunch of dudes in the states that get it. They’ve been undertaking some seemingly impossible feats with their .223s. multiple bull moose, Rocky Mountain goat, numerous bull elk (out to 600 off yards) deer, grizzly bear, black bear, and even a walrus. You can’t tell me that they’re all fluking it….

There’s a heap more that could be said, but I’m out. I’m good with my choices, and I’m going to continue to be out there efficiently doing the job. I’m not saying that a 224 is better than everything else, I’m just saying that it is a good choice for a few reasons. I don’t hesitate to recommend the right .223 with the right ammo to a young dude, and go out of my way to help them practice and become a proficient marksman with it.

Out

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Alright lads, let’s get after this. I’m going to try and sun it all up, in what will be my last post in this thread.

From what I’ve seen (as a generalisation) hunters in this country are average riflemen. The general hunter fires fuck all ammo a year, and if it’s anymore than just the deer they shoot, then it’s at a flat range usually from a bench. To be truly effective in the feild we need to be shooting a LOT more, and that’s where the .223 comes in. I’m aiming to fire 500-1000 rounds annually, all in order to be the most effective and efficient shot I can be. This is in the feild in simulated hunting conditions. That is a far cheaper not to mention less fatiguing and potentially recoil inducing prospect with a 224 centrefire than with a 270/308/magnum.

Someone mentioned ‘owing it to the animals we hunt’. Shit yeah we do, and that’s why I practice, practice, practice. Me being a better marksman with the gun I’ve put thousands of rounds through, is going to end up with less rodeos than if I went by the convention wisdom and shot a 7mm RM like everyone else. I hunt solo and do spotting my own hits (or misses) is only possible at a recoil level that tops out at probably a 6 creed. The higher the recoil of the gun you shoot, the MORE practice that is required to get get good.

Barrel life on a .223 is incredible, and I can make the ammo for a lot less than the 6.5 creed in the safe. Plus, it has sufficient ability to kill the game I’m after out to serious distances. That- is the reason why I choose to hunt with a .224 centrefire. (I have a 22 creed also)

Right, so let’s look at optimised killing. Putting a heavy TMK or ELD-M in a .224 optimises it for making animals die. The first deer my mate saw shot with my .223 couldn’t believe the damage it caused. He commented that the mess was worse than his .308 made. That’s because most of the ammo that some of you guys are using is not optimised. Put a heavy frangible bullet in there, and I bet you’ll be complaining about the damage and wastage of meat. You’re shooting a big gun, but it has been restricted in its capability. You’re rolling around in a V8 with 1/2 the plug leads off, and I’m in a 4 cylinder at peak tune.

There’s a bunch of dudes in the states that get it. They’ve been undertaking some seemingly impossible feats with their .223s. multiple bull moose, Rocky Mountain goat, numerous bull elk (out to 600 off yards) deer, grizzly bear, black bear, and even a walrus. You can’t tell me that they’re all fluking it….

There’s a heap more that could be said, but I’m out. I’m good with my choices, and I’m going to continue to be out there efficiently doing the job. I’m not saying that a 224 is better than everything else, I’m just saying that it is a good choice for a few reasons. I don’t hesitate to recommend the right .223 with the right ammo to a young dude, and go out of my way to help them practice and become a proficient marksman with it.

Out

Go and watch the backfire and Erik Cortina challenges. Theres an element of forgetting the shots where it doesn't work. Very few out there are shooting as well as they claim. Whatever rifle calibre they choose. When it comes to proving it, most fail. Hunting youtube vids are better for finding hunting areas than working out whats commonly realistically achievable for the average person.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

...To be truly effective in the field we need to be shooting a LOT more, and that’s where the .223 comes in. I’m aiming to fire 500-1000 rounds annually, all in order to be the most effective and efficient shot I can be. This is in the field in simulated hunting conditions.
...I don’t hesitate to recommend the right .223 with the right ammo to a young dude, and go out of my way to help them practice and become a proficient marksman with it.

The most important point for all hunters/shooters regarding any gear/equipment/calibre/cartridge.

GET OUT THERE AND PRACTICE WITH IT IN SIMULATED OR REAL SITUATIONS. Especially in adverse conditions to show you the true potential be it good or bad.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Alright lads, let’s get after this. I’m going to try and sun it all up, in what will be my last post in this thread.

From what I’ve seen (as a generalisation) hunters in this country are average riflemen. The general hunter fires fuck all ammo a year, and if it’s anymore than just the deer they shoot, then it’s at a flat range usually from a bench. To be truly effective in the feild we need to be shooting a LOT more, and that’s where the .223 comes in. I’m aiming to fire 500-1000 rounds annually, all in order to be the most effective and efficient shot I can be. This is in the feild in simulated hunting conditions. That is a far cheaper not to mention less fatiguing and potentially recoil inducing prospect with a 224 centrefire than with a 270/308/magnum.

Someone mentioned ‘owing it to the animals we hunt’. Shit yeah we do, and that’s why I practice, practice, practice. Me being a better marksman with the gun I’ve put thousands of rounds through, is going to end up with less rodeos than if I went by the convention wisdom and shot a 7mm RM like everyone else. I hunt solo and do spotting my own hits (or misses) is only possible at a recoil level that tops out at probably a 6 creed. The higher the recoil of the gun you shoot, the MORE practice that is required to get get good.

Barrel life on a .223 is incredible, and I can make the ammo for a lot less than the 6.5 creed in the safe. Plus, it has sufficient ability to kill the game I’m after out to serious distances. That- is the reason why I choose to hunt with a .224 centrefire. (I have a 22 creed also)

Right, so let’s look at optimised killing. Putting a heavy TMK or ELD-M in a .224 optimises it for making animals die. The first deer my mate saw shot with my .223 couldn’t believe the damage it caused. He commented that the mess was worse than his .308 made. That’s because most of the ammo that some of you guys are using is not optimised. Put a heavy frangible bullet in there, and I bet you’ll be complaining about the damage and wastage of meat. You’re shooting a big gun, but it has been restricted in its capability. You’re rolling around in a V8 with 1/2 the plug leads off, and I’m in a 4 cylinder at peak tune.

There’s a bunch of dudes in the states that get it. They’ve been undertaking some seemingly impossible feats with their .223s. multiple bull moose, Rocky Mountain goat, numerous bull elk (out to 600 off yards) deer, grizzly bear, black bear, and even a walrus. You can’t tell me that they’re all fluking it….

There’s a heap more that could be said, but I’m out. I’m good with my choices, and I’m going to continue to be out there efficiently doing the job. I’m not saying that a 224 is better than everything else, I’m just saying that it is a good choice for a few reasons. I don’t hesitate to recommend the right .223 with the right ammo to a young dude, and go out of my way to help them practice and become a proficient marksman with it.

Out

Don't leave

the man with one tool is likely more proficient than the man with many tools for the same job or something like that

Daniel Boone beware the man with but one rifle likely knows how to use it