Thread: A question for the doubters

Heres how I roll with it. Next weekend we are "hunting" on the challenge course at Sparrowhawk. I know shots will tend to be longish, 400M or so. I know getting closer, which is AWAYS the best option is not doable there (and in some hunting terrain too but not usually). There is a very high chance there will be wind, prossibly quite a bit. Will I take a 223, no. Will I take a 6mmCM, maybe. Will I take the 6.5-284 - you betcha! If all I had was a 223, would I take it, you brycha!

when he starts deliberately pissing on ya leg ya will know Maraoa

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Prs is target shooting so largely irrelevant to this discussion. If you can’t get a 160 grain bullet into an inch group at 100 meters that’s your problem, not mine. As far as wound channel diameter, your missing another dimension. As in length, that’s important too. If someone tries to tell me a .224 88grain eldm doing 2800fps is going to penetrate as well as a .284 160grain accubond doing 3200fps and create a larger wound channel I think I’ll scream. And yes people can shoot them accurately enough to hit a deer where they want to.

I'll wager $20 and a beer afterwards that in field positions you aren't putting 10 shots in a 1 inch target at 100 with the rifle capable of launching a 169 at 3200fps. I'm not saying that just because of recoil but also because a 3 shot moa group is not MOA an moa group and neither is a 10 really. Also a tight group not at point of aim is also no good being consistently off isn't usefull either. I'm also not saying a 223 will either BTW but it's more likely.

On penetration how much do you need there hardly a deer in this country that's thick enough that we need hugely excessive penetration. Also the higher FPS hinders pentration not helps it a 160AB at 1600fps will penetrate much more than one at 3200fps. ELDs will regularly exit so I'd say pentration is sufficient and as they slow it only increases.

Prs isn't completely irrelevant hitting a target or at what you are aiming at is hugely relevant while the setups aren't as they aren't practical often for hunting it does tend to show traits that benefit shooting precision.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Do you use match type projectiles?

I shoot factory hunting ammo. Standard .308 150gsoft point. The places I go, this does the job, and I don't get out enough to bother about reloading.

I'm certain there's shooters here that could hunt reds effectively and ethically with a 55gr .223 fmj... I do not at all have the confidence in my ability to do so and wouldn't even attempt. That's why I use a 6.5prc for long (factory load Hornady 147gr eld-x) or .308win for short (new build, yet to work out). The last time I was out I got two reds with the 6.5prc within 10s of each other, I thought I missed the first one as it just disappeared from view, I saw the second go down. Turns out the first one was pole axed so hard it dropped where it was standing before my eye even register it moved, it was there and then it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I'll wager $20 and a beer afterwards that in field positions you aren't putting 10 shots in a 1 inch target at 100 with the rifle capable of launching a 169 at 3200fps. I'm not saying that just because of recoil but also because a 3 shot moa group is not MOA an moa group and neither is a 10 really. Also a tight group not at point of aim is also no good being consistently off isn't usefull either. I'm also not saying a 223 will either BTW but it's more likely.

On penetration how much do you need there hardly a deer in this country that's thick enough that we need hugely excessive penetration. Also the higher FPS hinders pentration not helps it a 160AB at 1600fps will penetrate much more than one at 3200fps. ELDs will regularly exit so I'd say pentration is sufficient and as they slow it only increases.

Prs isn't completely irrelevant hitting a target or at what you are aiming at is hugely relevant while the setups aren't as they aren't practical often for hunting it does tend to show traits that benefit shooting precision.

Interesting wager.
And I'd be on your side no matter what caliber.
That's the bit I find interesting/intriguing/scary. Internet hotshots who talk about long range hunting, but don't seem to shoot very well in a crowd.
I've seen it a few times. And it makes me wonder what some of the strike rates really are.

Well just shot a deer the dog took me too, so a bit of success. And I think stocky you are missing the point a bit. 10 shoot group? The animals I shoot at usually run after the first shot if I don’t get it right and in a hunting situation you don’t need to be inch precise. Even on a small deer the lethal area on a shoulder is at least 6 inches across.And 3200fps that’s at the muzzle and accubonds do open up nicely they just don’t fly to pieces. And lastly if you have a look at the excellent article on page one that gimp put up you’ll note that wound channel is created by the pressure in tissue that is created by the bullet passing through the tissue. You can’t really have too much penetration

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Had a think about this one last night. The larger projectile is shedding/ Imparting energy faster due to bigger surface area. That seems pretty intuitive?

It's also light for calibre by comparison. Not apples n apples

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Interesting wager.
And I'd be on your side no matter what caliber.
That's the bit I find interesting/intriguing/scary. Internet hotshots who talk about long range hunting, but don't seem to shoot very well in a crowd.
I've seen it a few times. And it makes me wonder what some of the strike rates really are.

I missed 2 deer last evening. 250 and 350 yds. It happens. At least they weren't hurt (checked with the dog).
It was windy but thats just an excuse. I was the reason.

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Well just shot a deer the dog took me too, so a bit of success. And I think stocky you are missing the point a bit. 10 shoot group? The animals I shoot at usually run after the first shot if I don’t get it right and in a hunting situation you don’t need to be inch precise. Even on a small deer the lethal area on a shoulder is at least 6 inches across.And 3200fps that’s at the muzzle and accubonds do open up nicely they just don’t fly to pieces. And lastly if you have a look at the excellent article on page one that gimp put up you’ll note that wound channel is created by the pressure in tissue that is created by the bullet passing through the tissue. You can’t really have too much penetration

The 10 shot group is because it's more indicative of what you and your rifle can do over say 10 different shots on animals (actually this is in your favor as its in one sitting. Ass long as you like for your barrel to cool down if you feel the need). Don't even stress about the wgaer just go try it in your own presence and you will see what I mean.

You can't have too much but it can come at the cost of recoil, shootability, and width of the wound. Also the stretch is often temporary if nothing cuts it whilst stretched. Think of a rubber band. You can stretch it hugely but if you nick it the stretch becomes permanent.

The reason people miss is they aren't that good and that's exaggerated by recoil.
Anyway the point if the thread was that the 223 with heavy calibre match type projectiles is a plenty capable big game hunting rifle inside the ranges that most hunters should be limiting themselves in the field.

Originally Posted by Stocky

On penetration how much do you need there hardly a deer in this country that's thick enough that we need hugely excessive penetration.

This bears repeating. We aren't killing water buffalo here, just deer.

I've used a .223 with 75 Amax entirely satisfactorily, but as most amount of my spring shooting happens past 450m the 6.5SAUM gets the nod mostly from me then simply due to better bc and velocity taking a bit more out of wind miscalculations. For >250m the 223 is great - any shortcomings seem to be more mine than due to the cartridge.

Originally Posted by Stocky

The 10 shot group is because it's more indicative of what you and your rifle can do over say 10 different shots on animals (actually this is in your favor as its in one sitting. Ass long as you like for your barrel to cool down if you feel the need). Don't even stress about the wgaer just go try it in your own presence and you will see what I mean.

You can't have too much but it can come at the cost of recoil, shootability, and width of the wound. Also the stretch is often temporary if nothing cuts it whilst stretched. Think of a rubber band. You can stretch it hugely but if you nick it the stretch becomes permanent.

The reason people miss is they aren't that good and that's exaggerated by recoil.
Anyway the point if the thread was that the 223 with heavy calibre match type projectiles is a plenty capable big game hunting rifle inside the ranges that most hunters should be limiting themselves in the field.

I fully agree with the accuracy of the 223, I haven’t been able to shoot a 308 as well as my 223.
4 shots at 50m with 55g and 64g mix, bipod and no bags.
With a better rest setup and one ammo they’re normally all touching at 50m and not far different at 100m.
But hey I only shoot to 200, hence the close sighting range.

Originally Posted by Roarless20

My experience of .224 75gr and 80gr eldm @2900fps mv @50m to 300m is that they usually dont exit the head and top of neck on deer. This proves they are very frangible and will be less likely to get the job done on adverse conditions shots.
If they had some .224 high bc bonded options then i would be alot more comfortable shooting rutting stags with the .224 cartridges.
Obviously im a subscriber of shooting deer with the .223 and especially high bc heavy eldms etc but only in open country and not bush and rut conditions.

I seriously suggest you try some lighter monos. The Barnes 50grn ttsx is particularly good. I haven't driven them overly fast and faster is better. They really make wee 223 into Giant killer IF you keep range down to keep velocity up.

Alright lads, let’s get after this. I’m going to try and sun it all up, in what will be my last post in this thread.

From what I’ve seen (as a generalisation) hunters in this country are average riflemen. The general hunter fires fuck all ammo a year, and if it’s anymore than just the deer they shoot, then it’s at a flat range usually from a bench. To be truly effective in the feild we need to be shooting a LOT more, and that’s where the .223 comes in. I’m aiming to fire 500-1000 rounds annually, all in order to be the most effective and efficient shot I can be. This is in the feild in simulated hunting conditions. That is a far cheaper not to mention less fatiguing and potentially recoil inducing prospect with a 224 centrefire than with a 270/308/magnum.

Someone mentioned ‘owing it to the animals we hunt’. Shit yeah we do, and that’s why I practice, practice, practice. Me being a better marksman with the gun I’ve put thousands of rounds through, is going to end up with less rodeos than if I went by the convention wisdom and shot a 7mm RM like everyone else. I hunt solo and do spotting my own hits (or misses) is only possible at a recoil level that tops out at probably a 6 creed. The higher the recoil of the gun you shoot, the MORE practice that is required to get get good.

Barrel life on a .223 is incredible, and I can make the ammo for a lot less than the 6.5 creed in the safe. Plus, it has sufficient ability to kill the game I’m after out to serious distances. That- is the reason why I choose to hunt with a .224 centrefire. (I have a 22 creed also)

Right, so let’s look at optimised killing. Putting a heavy TMK or ELD-M in a .224 optimises it for making animals die. The first deer my mate saw shot with my .223 couldn’t believe the damage it caused. He commented that the mess was worse than his .308 made. That’s because most of the ammo that some of you guys are using is not optimised. Put a heavy frangible bullet in there, and I bet you’ll be complaining about the damage and wastage of meat. You’re shooting a big gun, but it has been restricted in its capability. You’re rolling around in a V8 with 1/2 the plug leads off, and I’m in a 4 cylinder at peak tune.

There’s a bunch of dudes in the states that get it. They’ve been undertaking some seemingly impossible feats with their .223s. multiple bull moose, Rocky Mountain goat, numerous bull elk (out to 600 off yards) deer, grizzly bear, black bear, and even a walrus. You can’t tell me that they’re all fluking it….

There’s a heap more that could be said, but I’m out. I’m good with my choices, and I’m going to continue to be out there efficiently doing the job. I’m not saying that a 224 is better than everything else, I’m just saying that it is a good choice for a few reasons. I don’t hesitate to recommend the right .223 with the right ammo to a young dude, and go out of my way to help them practice and become a proficient marksman with it.

Out

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm considering taking mine for wild cattle in October.

Well good fi you young Gimp..the .222 was more than adequate on big scrubby bulls,had to be very carefull though.
Some of the little pill's did have a habit of ..say bouncing off lol.
Whether or not your just talking shit about giving the mad cows a go or not..a 223 will sure as hell do the bizz.
Just do it right lol.