Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by Mararoa

So more of everything is still better?

Probably. But then, enough is enough.

Originally Posted by Shearer

Although I have no scientific evidence for this, so am unlikely to impress @gimp, (and my apologies if this has already been covered in the screeds of research that I haven't looked at) but I find it hard to believe that the "shock' of a bullet entering an animal does not have a big impact on its immediate incapacitation. You sometimes see on slow motion video a ripple run through the animal when it is hit, as the bullet releases energy into the animal. I liken it to being hit in the chest with a sledgehammer. In this case, because the impact is spread over a large area, no wound channel is created and there is no apparent tissue damage, but the blow will definitely incapacitate. As we have all probably experienced, being "winded" can be totally incapacitating, to the point of not being able to stand or breath. Usually within a few minutes we recover, but in the case of a terminal bullet wound, the animal will not. I don't believe the results of a ballistic gel test would have any way to relate this effect to the shooting of an animal because there is no permanent physical damage caused that can be observed and measured.

Yep. Ive been going through whatever papers I can access this morning. Until I realised it was a sidetrack. Basically they said the projectile shape was biggest factor with frontal surface area creating both the biggest permanent and temporary cavities. What most did seem to spend time on was the imperfections of modelling in a homogenous compound.
Also the bigger the muscle, the more KE needed. For permanent cavities the best was a Brenneke slug.

And so it comes back too real world experience and we can probably all attest too less likelihood of an animal dropping and staying down long enough to expire with smaller projectiles.

Unless you hit the CNS.
It makes sense that an 80gr 223 is better than a 55gr 223 in that sense sure, and I dont doubt that enough is enough. But I have also seen when enough isn't quite enough. Doesn't mean the animal didnt die. But it did or might mean its harder to find/recover, and so having a projectile that performs with a little bit more leeway is never a bad thing.

An arrow actually creates quite a large permanent cavity. An inch and a half still spinning as it cuts through. Bullet or arrow, the cavity is about blood loss. But what it dosen't do, is create the extra temporary cavity or impart a heap of kinetic energy, or efficiently break bone. Yet due too its weight it has plenty of momentum. You can see what part of the equation is missing.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

An arrow actually creates quite a large permanent cavity. An inch and a half still spinning as it cuts through.

maybe. maybe not ?

Am I missing something Gimp? Its a photo, I presume you? of the lungs of a dead animal, so it worked, with an inch and a half of hole in 4 directions through it? So plenty of momentum.
No bruising nearby indication no temporary cavity damage?

I'd call it a very small permanent cavity in comparison to even a very modest rifle bullet. I don't bow hunt so it's the result of a quick google to check.


Remember the permanent cavity is what you get at the end, regardless of all the short-term jiggling around in-between or any theoretical causes.

Its exactly the size i said it would be. It will cause unconsciousness in 8- 15 seconds. Death shortly after. I do bow hunt and have seen many like it. What it wont do is cause the animal to drop on the spot through shock or incapacitation while the unconsciousness happens. It will leave a blood trail comparable to most rifles. Often better. But you will have to go find it unless its surprised and stood still until it fell.

Ironically and for humour, im going to say its sufficient.

Originally Posted by caberslash

Or shoot both with a shotgun?

What load do you suggest for a deer at 130m?
Or for thar at 90m while chukar hunting, which is what got me started down the drilling road.

Being able to slide a selector forward and just hammer an animal with 156 grains of Norma goodness is better than faffing around with slugs or buckshot while the animal is standing there.

Originally Posted by Shearer

Not regularly, but it is one I consider when I have the opportunity. I feel it gives more leeway if the shot were to go higher than intended. Of course the animal has to be in the right position for it to effective. Aiming at the off shoulder of an animal quartering away seem to do this, as long as the projectile has the integrity to go all the way through and smash that shoulder joint, the animal will generally fall over and then die.

Placement like this? Stealing Bruce's video - no poor intent, just a useful illustration. Not a .223 of course, bigger heavier bullet - 115gr. Apparently broke both shoulders.

https://youtu.be/grLO0p0xSlI?si=kKjlgKmBjyMpVkLd

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Its exactly the size i said it would be. It will cause unconsciousness in 8- 15 seconds. Death shortly after. I do bow hunt and have seen many like it. What it wont do is cause the animal to drop on the spot through shock or incapacitation while the unconsciousness happens. It will leave a blood trail comparable to most rifles. Often better. But you will have to go find it unless its surprised and stood still until it fell.

Ironically and for humour, im going to say its sufficient.

Irony indeed. very good.



Why do you think deer don't drop every time from shock with a front shoulder/lung placement, even with very large bullets and high impact energy, if that is the mechanism that causes it?


I think the "instant incapacitation" is either CNS damage from bullet or bone fragments, or enough of the lungs and major blood vessels being destroyed by the wound channel that there's more or less instant loss of blood pressure. But whether or not it happens appears to be highly placement specific

Originally Posted by gimp

Irony indeed. very good.



Why do you think deer don't drop every time from shock with a front shoulder/lung placement, even with very large bullets and high impact energy, if that is the mechanism that causes it?


I think the "instant incapacitation" is either CNS damage from bullet or bone fragments, or enough of the lungs and major blood vessels being destroyed by the wound channel that there's more or less instant loss of blood pressure. But whether or not it happens appears to be highly placement specific

So you don't think shock to the CNS is enough to disable an animal, only physical damage to it?

Originally Posted by gimp

Placement like this? Stealing Bruce's video - no poor intent, just a useful illustration. Not a .223 of course, bigger heavier bullet - 115gr. Apparently broke both shoulders.

https://youtu.be/grLO0p0xSlI?si=kKjlgKmBjyMpVkLd

Here ‘tis. Proof of death. Entry wound side.

Originally Posted by Shearer

So you don't think shock to the CNS is enough to disable an animal, only physical damage to it?

It's getting pretty speculative at this point. I'm not aware of any good evidence to support CNS "shock" without damage from a generic "shoulder shot".

I mean what do you reckon caused this deer to flop on the spot? CNS shock, or damage?

https://youtu.be/nSr8yArHaFk?si=tl-KppgXG9QErAav

Why doesn't this one flop? shot with a 6.5 and 140gr sp. Heaps more energy and a smaller deer
https://youtu.be/c4gZnNGHG1o?si=EHUrfZUi3PAfT0r3

Or this one, 308 and 150gr
https://youtu.be/TgMjqguHnW4?si=eezMJApeEadAnpGY

Originally Posted by Tahr

Here ‘tis. Proof of death. Entry wound side.
Attachment 258483

It was a well-placed shot.

https://youtu.be/QZrUZlxKR1c?si=tNv1QjB4IpDsrpG5

Autopsy on these would be interesting. The quartering on shot gives a lot of exposure to the spine.

Originally Posted by gimp

It's getting pretty speculative at this point. I'm not aware of any good evidence to support CNS "shock" without damage from a generic "shoulder shot".

I mean what do you reckon caused this deer to flop on the spot? CNS shock, or damage?

https://youtu.be/nSr8yArHaFk?si=tl-KppgXG9QErAav

Why doesn't this one flop? shot with a 6.5 and 140gr sp. Heaps more energy and a smaller deer
https://youtu.be/c4gZnNGHG1o?si=EHUrfZUi3PAfT0r3

Or this one, 308 and 150gr
https://youtu.be/TgMjqguHnW4?si=eezMJApeEadAnpGY

The first shot isn't comparable to the second two. Assuming the first shot hit point of aim as I didn't see impact, whereas the second two are very obvious impact location.
First one, shot angle means the major blood vessels in front of the heart were damaged, immediate lost of blood pressure to brain = immediate loss of consciousness.
The other two were lung shots, blood pressure is maintained until the deer dies from hypovolemic shock (blood volume loss causing blood pressure loss and thereafter loss of consciousness).
Calibre or cartridge isn't a meaningful variable here that I can see, different mechanism of injury/death.

I always do a bit of a poke around after killing something, can normally pin point exactly what was the cause of death and shot placement with adequately designed bullet over calibre or cartridge any day in my opinion. I'm not terribly convinced large calibres give wider margins of error or any of that guff either.