Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by gimp

Why do you think deer don't drop every time from shock with a front shoulder/lung placement, even with very large bullets and high impact energy, if that is the mechanism that causes it?


I think the "instant incapacitation" is either CNS damage from bullet or bone fragments, or enough of the lungs and major blood vessels being destroyed by the wound channel that there's more or less instant loss of blood pressure. But whether or not it happens appears to be highly placement specific

Its CNS damage that cause them to drop on the spot.

The autonomic nervous system has three main parts, sympathetic (flight or fight response), parasympathetic (rest & digest) and enteric (gastro function). The main autonomic nerve pathway we’re interested in runs from the brain down the neck with the carotid & jugular arteries, then into the thoracic cavity. This is the vagus nerve, which controls the heart & lungs. If you put a bullet, or multiple fragments thereof, through the the “junction box” of the aorta, front lungs / pulmonary arteries, just above and in front of the top of the heart (the hilar), then you will 95% of the time destroy the vagus nerves. Basically the brain is instantly disconnected from the engine room. In my experience, the collapse is usually more of a tipping over, the animal might stagger for a couple of seconds before it falls over sideways.

The other cause of instant collapse from a chest / shoulder shot is hitting the thoracic spinal nerves that form part of the somatic nervous system, which controls movement & locomotion. These are the nerves that emerge down from the spine in line with the thoracic vertebrae, T1-T12, into the front legs and flanks. These nerves (brachial plexus) are what you are aiming for with the high shoulder shot. If you hit spinal nerves below the spine it will cause the classic instant collapse, with the rump then front end crashing down without so much as a step. You don’t have to hit vertebrae directly to damage the spinal nerves, a wide temporal wound cavity and shock wave from a very rapidly expanding bullet will do it without much difficulty.

Quite often NZ hunters will use a soft fragmenting (frangible) bullet and aim for the mid point of the shoulder, halfway between the animal’s top line and brisket, in line with the foreleg. What will actually happen is you’ll get either the hilar or the high shoulder, or sometimes a bit of both, depending where the bullet actually hits and what it does immediately after. I’ve had some small caliber bullets do some very funky things in the front end of red deer as they open up, traveling almost sideways or straight up, or both. The Sierra Prohunter is very good at doing that, especially if you hit bone at an angle. It doesn’t open up into a nice even mushroom, the bullet is torn open into an ugly, sharp, spinning, weight shedding tearing machine. What that means is you’re covering more ground inside the animal and doing more damage along the way, than a nice even copper mono bullet for example.

I’ve always believed the preference for softer “match” type bullets here in NZ sets us apart from many other parts of the world, where historically the practice has been distinctly frowned upon. Particularly in the US. But as has been discussed in this thread already, bullets like ELD-M and TMK in small calibres are starting to get some proper attention in the US as guys realize there’s a lot more to this Kiwi style bang-floppery than just pot luck. I’ve never really understood why a lot of the guys over there don’t get it. They can get really upset about it! I mean they use soft fragmenting varmint bullets for coyotes for example, and sack them on the spot without a second thought. It’s exactly the same mechanism for deer. It just means the deer is right there where you shot it, instead of half way across the county.

Last year I had great success with the .224 cal Speer semi-point Varmint, 70gr, in my Howa Mini .223. It’s an old design with a lousy BC but for an ugly old bullet it’s farkin’ unreal how it will bowl over red hinds with a hilar shot. Just take your time and pick your angle. I’m talking relatively close range shots, 100-200m. Bang. Flop. You might get the old one stagger about a bit but I’ve yet to have one disappear off into the timber. To be honest I stopped overthinking it (cos I used to, a lot) and now I’ll shoot a deer with whatever is at hand. If I was to go for another deer rifle for general purpose use, I’d almost certainly go for a powerful fast twist .224 cal, either .22 Creedmoor or .22-250, and shoot 80gr ELD-M. But in the meantime one of the .223s will do just fine.

Originally Posted by gimp

https://youtu.be/QZrUZlxKR1c?si=tNv1QjB4IpDsrpG5

Autopsy on these would be interesting. The quartering on shot gives a lot of exposure to the spine.

That was a 74 grn Targex. I will autopsy the next one at that angle.

Originally Posted by Makros

The first shot isn't comparable to the second two. Assuming the first shot hit point of aim as I didn't see impact, whereas the second two are very obvious impact location.
First one, shot angle means the major blood vessels in front of the heart were damaged, immediate lost of blood pressure to brain = immediate loss of consciousness.
The other two were lung shots, blood pressure is maintained until the deer dies from hypovolemic shock (blood volume loss causing blood pressure loss and thereafter loss of consciousness).
Calibre or cartridge isn't a meaningful variable here that I can see, different mechanism of injury/death.

I always do a bit of a poke around after killing something, can normally pin point exactly what was the cause of death and shot placement with adequately designed bullet over calibre or cartridge any day in my opinion. I'm not terribly convinced large calibres give wider margins of error or any of that guff either.

Yah that was kind of the point. Results are placement and bullet construction specific, speculation about shock from energy deposit via the temporary cavity is a pretty long way down the list

Of course one can cherry-pick videos showing what results are possible with any combination, like I have. It doesn't have any bearing on what results are probable. That would require a more structured approach

Originally Posted by gimp

It's getting pretty speculative at this point. I'm not aware of any good evidence to support CNS "shock" without damage from a generic "shoulder shot".

I mean what do you reckon caused this deer to flop on the spot? CNS shock, or damage?

https://youtu.be/nSr8yArHaFk?si=tl-KppgXG9QErAav

Why doesn't this one flop? shot with a 6.5 and 140gr sp. Heaps more energy and a smaller deer
https://youtu.be/c4gZnNGHG1o?si=EHUrfZUi3PAfT0r3

Or this one, 308 and 150gr
https://youtu.be/TgMjqguHnW4?si=eezMJApeEadAnpGY

That top vid of mine... 195 yds. 77 grn Sierra Tipped Match. MV 2,900fps
Here's the moment of impact. You can see the ripple (Dark lines).


Here's the in spot with shoulder peeled back

Much higher than I thought. Severing spinal cord made it drop then. Without being critical of otherwise effective shooting I avoid that shot as it disables quickly but kills slowly.

Originally Posted by Makros

Much higher than I thought. Severing spinal cord made it drop then. Without being critical of otherwise effective shooting I avoid that shot as it disables quickly but kills slowly.

It was appropriate for the reasonably steep down hill angle. 3" inches lower would have been better. I take a lot of care about the line the bullet will take inside the animal. Albeit I sometimes don't get it right. Of 90 odd with the .223 over the last 18mnths Ive lost maybe a couple.

Originally Posted by gimp

It's getting pretty speculative at this point. I'm not aware of any good evidence to support CNS "shock" without damage from a generic "shoulder shot".

I mean what do you reckon caused this deer to flop on the spot? CNS shock, or damage?

https://youtu.be/nSr8yArHaFk?si=tl-KppgXG9QErAav

Why doesn't this one flop? shot with a 6.5 and 140gr sp. Heaps more energy and a smaller deer
https://youtu.be/c4gZnNGHG1o?si=EHUrfZUi3PAfT0r3

Or this one, 308 and 150gr
https://youtu.be/TgMjqguHnW4?si=eezMJApeEadAnpGY

I think that is the problem. There is no physical damage of shock to provide evidence.
However, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, and I guess if you bang/flop a deer which meets neither of your above criteria it must be a possibility.
Which takes me back to the ballistic gel tests. As you have shown, a bigger, heavier projectile doesn't necessarily produce a bigger wound channel but the extra kinetic energy it carries must go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear.

Long post here, but I hope you all enjoy it. it will make sense by the end i hope.


Part one.

As well as calving and feeding calves, its also tree planting time of the year. Right now Im part way through planting 1100 Eucalypts, Jap cedar, Walnuts and chestnuts.

With planting comes animal control/ resource management. I never call it pest control. its balance. I need to get the hares in the plantation area supressed so the trees have a chance.
So the first fine night this week saw me out with the .22 and subs, spotlighting. I came home really chuffed with myself! 16-18 hares seen. 14 shots fired at ranges from 20-60 meters. Most off hand with the spotlight in one hand and rifle in other resting on spotlight. Result- 12 dead hares with one other I think I got but lost track of where it was after the shot and couldn't find it in long grass.

The point of that is that right now Im shooting well and confidently.

Confidence makes a difference.

But there were a few that bolted before I felt comfortable with the distance. So today when the sun came out I took the next lot of trees and my 270 in case some longer shots presented.

Part two.

I get too the planting area, and bloody hell theres a pig in some rough country a couple of paddock back. I grab the rifle and cut round to get wind right and sneak up. As I get closer, the pig turns into a mob, rooting around in some cutover and sprayed out gorse im developing. I guess I get into about 40 meters from them when out of the bush comes 3 more and one is a decent boar. As he approaches I notice his size, the shield crease where it terminates on his foreleg, and the absolute width of his chest. Hes a big boy! And suddenly this thread pops into my mind at about the point in time he realises something is wrong!

Now I am sorry if I upset anyone, but whats in my mind is. As he pauses to look at me from 60 meters. That I would not take this quartering forward shot with my 6.5 grendel. Or a 243. And certainly not with a 223 no matter how good the projectile. It would be a headshot, or Id wait for him to turn and shooting him quartering away. That crease tells me hes got close to 50mm of sheild, plus bone at that angle. alot of it. If I wait for him to turn, he might run and reality is, doing so reduces my success by 20%.
Standing headshot. I know I can do it, but it increases risk that I dont feel when shooting hares.

But I have a 270! and so the projectile takes him on the point of the shoulder and he hits the ground with whatever colloquialism you choose. Sacked, bang flop etc.

Before I continue, Ill address the vids Gimp just posted. Most roe are harvested for market. The shot as seen there in the vid that is preferred is a behind the shoulder lung shot that damages little meat. With a heavy constructed projectile that will impart only some of its energy given the size of the deer. Having shot Roe, I can say they are prone to run in such cases.
I dont think anyone here is suggesting shooting reds or fallow with a 404 jeffery is particularly the optimum either.

Tahrs shot definitely transferred energy to the CNS. You can see it in the shiver the deer gave just after.

The boar went 170lb on the dot.

Heres the interesting bits so far.




The boar. Note the shield crease.



Front on showing his chest thickness.



The blood from his thoracic cavity.



Where the projectile went through his lungs.

Now as I read in the papers today, it said that the bigger the muscle/bone tissue of the animal, the more energy needed to create large permanent and temporary cavities.

So its not that surprising that the hole in the lungs of this boar is quite equivalent too the one from the arrow in Gimps photos.

Given the small size of the permanent cavity through the lungs, what dropped the boar on the spot long enough for him to bleed out and die? There is an entry wound and exit wound in the ribcage. Its probable Ive broken leg bones given the angle. Ill find out tomorrow. No obvious injury directly too the spine.

Ever been corked in the thigh? =dead leg. You absolutely can have CNS shock without actual physical damage to the cns parts.
An example : i shot a sika stag @30m with the 6.5prc 123sst @2900pfs. The projectile deflected & popped after hitting brush of some sort. Hit 3 inches in front of the pelvis, it dropped on the shot before taking off on its front legs only while i put some follow up shots into it.
The piece of bullet was only some flat shaped copper jacket that went into the backsteak but didnt damged the spine.
Now i use bonded bullets in the bush.

To add to my last post. Have you ever had an animal drop on the spot, only to get up some time later and run off? I have and I know others that have. I doubt if this would be a thing if the CNS was damaged or it had lost blood pressure?

Originally Posted by Shearer

To add to my last post. Have you ever had an animal drop on the spot, only to get up some time later and run off? I have and I know others that have. I doubt if this would be a thing if the CNS was damaged or it had lost blood pressure?

I've shot and seen other deer shot unconscious with my .243  One gave me a rough ride for what felt like 5mins when i grabbed it by the spikes as it was waking up! I cut its throat after squealing out for my mate to help me!

Ahhhh the "mystical void" has finally been mentioned. In theory it exists above lungs but below spine and on a true broadside if your luck is really bad you can thread the needle between rib bones and hit nothing of importance,slight shock towards spine can drop animal who recovers and takes off. I've had a "dead" wallaby come round in boot of car when home in the city( some quick grabbing and smack on head with short pribar sorted that one) had been hit with buckshot hours earlier. The other one is opening game bag,duck flies out and we fall over laughing about it.apparently not uncommon for bird to be stunned and recover.lost fat mallard that dropped from sky then recovered and flew off as dog approached.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Long post here, but I hope you all enjoy it. it will make sense by the end i hope.


Part one.

As well as calving and feeding calves, its also tree planting time of the year. Right now Im part way through planting 1100 Eucalypts, Jap cedar, Walnuts and chestnuts.

With planting comes animal control/ resource management. I never call it pest control. its balance. I need to get the hares in the plantation area supressed so the trees have a chance.
So the first fine night this week saw me out with the .22 and subs, spotlighting. I came home really chuffed with myself! 16-18 hares seen. 14 shots fired at ranges from 20-60 meters. Most off hand with the spotlight in one hand and rifle in other resting on spotlight. Result- 12 dead hares with one other I think I got but lost track of where it was after the shot and couldn't find it in long grass.

The point of that is that right now Im shooting well and confidently.

Confidence makes a difference.

But there were a few that bolted before I felt comfortable with the distance. So today when the sun came out I took the next lot of trees and my 270 in case some longer shots presented.

Part two.

I get too the planting area, and bloody hell theres a pig in some rough country a couple of paddock back. I grab the rifle and cut round to get wind right and sneak up. As I get closer, the pig turns into a mob, rooting around in some cutover and sprayed out gorse im developing. I guess I get into about 40 meters from them when out of the bush comes 3 more and one is a decent boar. As he approaches I notice his size, the shield crease where it terminates on his foreleg, and the absolute width of his chest. Hes a big boy! And suddenly this thread pops into my mind at about the point in time he realises something is wrong!

Now I am sorry if I upset anyone, but whats in my mind is. As he pauses to look at me from 60 meters. That I would not take this quartering forward shot with my 6.5 grendel. Or a 243. And certainly not with a 223 no matter how good the projectile. It would be a headshot, or Id wait for him to turn and shooting him quartering away. That crease tells me hes got close to 50mm of sheild, plus bone at that angle. alot of it. If I wait for him to turn, he might run and reality is, doing so reduces my success by 20%.
Standing headshot. I know I can do it, but it increases risk that I dont feel when shooting hares.

But I have a 270! and so the projectile takes him on the point of the shoulder and he hits the ground with whatever colloquialism you choose. Sacked, bang flop etc.

Before I continue, Ill address the vids Gimp just posted. Most roe are harvested for market. The shot as seen there in the vid that is preferred is a behind the shoulder lung shot that damages little meat. With a heavy constructed projectile that will impart only some of its energy given the size of the deer. Having shot Roe, I can say they are prone to run in such cases.
I dont think anyone here is suggesting shooting reds or fallow with a 404 jeffery is particularly the optimum either.

Tahrs shot definitely transferred energy to the CNS. You can see it in the shiver the deer gave just after.

The boar went 170lb on the dot.

Heres the interesting bits so far.




The boar. Note the shield crease.



Front on showing his chest thickness.



The blood from his thoracic cavity.



Where the projectile went through his lungs.

Now as I read in the papers today, it said that the bigger the muscle/bone tissue of the animal, the more energy needed to create large permanent and temporary cavities.

So its not that surprising that the hole in the lungs of this boar is quite equivalent too the one from the arrow in Gimps photos.

Given the small size of the permanent cavity through the lungs, what dropped the boar on the spot long enough for him to bleed out and die? There is an entry wound and exit wound in the ribcage. Its probable Ive broken leg bones given the angle. Ill find out tomorrow. No obvious injury directly too the spine.

Haha I was just waiting for someone to come up with a big boar "shield" story but you've spoilt the fun by using a 270!

270 takes no prisoners.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

270 takes no prisoners.

Amen to that.