Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by TLB

..What people won't post in the thread is the times it hasn't worked because they pushed the envelope or the animal moved etc. Bit like the .223 thread I suspect.

You can miss or make a hash of it with any calibre.

Practise makes this less likey, and I suspect you will be inclined to practise more with a smaller cartridge that is cheaper to buy/reload.

If it were legal to hunt everything with a .224 calibre in the UK then my 7mm's in the cabinet would probably start sweating.

Its a pretty interesting conversation where anyone can come up with some anecdotal evidence to support their argument one way or the other. I think no one would argue with the fact that bullet design and bullet placement trump calibre every time. I have just recently started using a .223 on deer sized game, using the 73gn ELDX and I would have to say that compared to my 6.5 creedmoor using 129 SST projectiles that the internal tissue and organ damage is actually greater with the .223. To me the big minus with the .223 is that there is often no exit and therefor no blood trail, we'd all like to think that our shot deer will drop on the spot but that's not always the case and a deer doesn't have to go very far in rough terrain to die and then disappear. For me at least the .223 is great in more open country where I can pick my shot but in the bush I would go for a heavier calibre every time.

Don't get me wrong. A larger, heavier bullet of good construction makes a larger wound. In some instances this may result in a slightly faster death. However the .223 with good bullets appears to be sufficient in most real circumstances. I don't plan to shoot things in the guts. When I do, I tend to get a 2nd shot in regardless of cartridge. I don't have to be any more selective with shot placement - the wounds are sufficiently large that "anywhere in the front shoulder" is as effective as with anything else I've used.

Edit: Bruce you didn't need to delete that!

I want to see a wolverine anything that can open cans with their teeth impresses me

Originally Posted by gimp

Don't get me wrong. A larger, heavier bullet of good construction makes a larger wound. In some instances this may result in a slightly faster death. However the .223 with good bullets appears to be sufficient in most real circumstances. I don't plan to shoot things in the guts. When I do, I tend to get a 2nd shot in regardless of cartridge. I don't have to be any more selective with shot placement - the wounds are sufficiently large that "anywhere in the front shoulder" is as effective as with anything else I've used.

Edit: Bruce you didn't need to delete that!

Nosey Parker You have said it pretty much.

I’ve probably lost an animal or two with every caliber I’ve ever used, some never figured out why. Seen animals lost by other people using various calibers. When it comes to going out purely targeting bush deer I generally take 308 but I’m happy to take deer with 223 out to 380 metres if conditions are right. Most used rifle these days is 223, use it pretty much every week. Since 2015 have lost three deer out of 500+ shot. More than happy with results. I don’t worry about bullet energy or get too obsessed with checking wound channels, if it’s dead it’s fecking dead. All that matters.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

We all know of a thread here that has currently 136 pages of data showing .22 centrefire cartridges (typically .223) taking medium game. I’m on the side of the believers, owning and using a 1-8” twist .223, as well as a 22 creed. I also have a 6.5 creed that doesn’t leave the safe anymore.

I haven’t counted up the number of deer and tahr killed with a .223 on that thread, but there’s many. On my most recent hunt I watched a mate kill a fully mature red hind with a 73gr ELD-M at 385 yards. The impact velocity was 1910 fps and bullet energy was 590 ft/lbs. I saw the damage to the internal organs myself, and the results were not ‘marginal’ as the vast majority would have you believe. P.S I don’t subscribe to the 1000ftlb energy argument myself….

So, to the doubters- What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? How many deer would I (or others) have to kill for the non-sensical arguments to abate? (Bullets blowing up on shoulders, lack of penetration, margin for error with larger calibres etc etc)

Hey, I’m fully aware that caliber debate is one of those never ending things, but I’m just interested to see what objective measure is proposed. I reckon that because none of the people out there doing it with .223s have a name ending with Duley, Spomer, Henry, Boddington, Keith, Taylor or O’Connor, that it’ll never be accepted.

Lay down the challenge lads, let’s have at it!

I did count. for a reply in another thread. What it came down too was the 223 is mostly used for shooting fallow, yearlings and hinds. There were something like 14 red stags shot and by only 3 or 4 experienced hunters.
That tells you alot.
Bullet selection being equal, a 308 or 270 will always give you something extra.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

I did count. for a reply in another thread. What it came down too was the 223 is mostly used for shooting fallow, yearlings and hinds. There were something like 14 red stags shot and by only 3 or 4 experienced hunters.
That tells you alot.
Bullet selection being equal, a 308 or 270 will always give you something extra.

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

To be clear, I’m not in this to put anyone’s nose out of joint. I’d be more than happy for someone to convince me with DATA (not yarns) why I should swap the scope from my .223 to the 6.5. I just haven’t seen any difference in getting deer on the deck between any of the cartridges I’ve shot deer with. One thing is certain though, my accuracy has improved with the smaller ones.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

More sunlight entering the body

So I do agree if we compare apples with apples the results speak for themselves. I've always found it fooking annoying how folks will say how fantastic a .280rem is or any .284 calibre cartridge,theyslay animals like a bolk of lightning with any bullet from 120-160grns ....but a .270w is gay,they destroy to much meat in one breath yet zip through with no damage in the next. You poke the same make n model projectile at similar velocity out of pretty much and cartridge into something and it will behave very closely to any other the same. 75-80 grns at 2700 is always 75-80 grns at 2700. And 150 grns at 2800fps is also 150 at 2800. All will kill if poked in the important bits. Let the red stuff out n sunlight in and they die. Horses for courses the much maligned 55grn cup n core are still killing deer,when shot placement is good and range kept down a bit...... Nah nah nah don't get all uppity,you can't have it both ways. AS LONG as we consider the limits and stick to them,if animals die humanly. Life is good.its windy as fook outside at moment and predicted to be same tomorrow.im going bush hunting with very limited opportunity for longer shot,but it's always on cards,so I will take the .270

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

So I do agree if we compare apples with apples the results speak for themselves. I've always found it fooking annoying how folks will say how fantastic a .280rem is or any .284 calibre cartridge,theyslay animals like a bolk of lightning with any bullet from 120-160grns ....but a .270w is gay,they destroy to much meat in one breath yet zip through with no damage in the next. You poke the same make n model projectile at similar velocity out of pretty much and cartridge into something and it will behave very closely to any other the same. 75-80 grns at 2700 is always 75-80 grns at 2700. And 150 grns at 2800fps is also 150 at 2800. All will kill if poked in the important bits. Let the red stuff out n sunlight in and they die. Horses for courses the much maligned 55grn cup n core are still killing deer,when shot placement is good and range kept down a bit...... Nah nah nah don't get all uppity,you can't have it both ways. AS LONG as we consider the limits and stick to them,if animals die humanly. Life is good.its windy as fook outside at moment and predicted to be same tomorrow.im going bush hunting with very limited opportunity for longer shot,but it's always on cards,so I will take the .270

Mate I think most people call 270's gay as a joke and not being serious, the 270 is as good as any other calibre.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

To be clear, I’m not in this to put anyone’s nose out of joint. I’d be more than happy for someone to convince me with DATA (not yarns) why I should swap the scope from my .223 to the 6.5. I just haven’t seen any difference in getting deer on the deck between any of the cartridges I’ve shot deer with. One thing is certain though, my accuracy has improved with the smaller ones.

Even "less drift" at range isn't as clear cut at improving hit probability as we might think. This is a whole different kettle of fish - but it is sort of related. I'll start a thread on hit probability one day. May as well kill all the sacred cows.



For now here's a glimpse - a very small 6mm cartridge with a 108gr at 2700fps has the same hit probability at 500m on a 200mm dia circle as a 6.5PRC or a 7mm Rem Mag, with the median wind estimation error being 0.5ms and all other variables being "ideal". And has enough velocity for the bullet to fragment.

Of course increased recoil and cost tends to move the variables further away from "ideal" for larger cartridges more than smaller.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

To be clear, I’m not in this to put anyone’s nose out of joint. I’d be more than happy for someone to convince me with DATA (not yarns) why I should swap the scope from my .223 to the 6.5. I just haven’t seen any difference in getting deer on the deck between any of the cartridges I’ve shot deer with. One thing is certain though, my accuracy has improved with the smaller ones.

I think you miss the point. 3 or 4 hunters out of all those posting. Dont get me wrong, the 223 is a fantastic cartridge! Ive used one for most of the last 30 years. I like it. But if Im doing a multi day trip for red stags or bull Thar etc where I really want to kill something, Ill take my 270 every time.
Reasons, more destruction of bone and skin. Bigger exit wound. Easier blood trail to follow. More chance of a bang flop, more options on hasty shots or difficult angles or small windows.

Another factor is the change in technology and the shared expertise to use it. Rangefinders have come onto vommon use in the last 20 years or so. Prior to that estimating thd range was at least as hard to do as reading wind, possibly more so. The ability to know the exact range past 150M is one surr factor in achieving good shot placement, with a consequent increase in the effectiveness of calibres like 223 etc.

I would say if you had a large stag at 50m in front of you, your chance or margin of error increases with a larger projectile. Not saying the smaller one wont work but there is a bigger chance it wont kill outright with a smaller pill, just science.