Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm considering taking mine for wild cattle in October.

the biggest fuckups I have seen trying to kill animals with a rifle have been cattle and a .22 not pretty at all some of them- and no not me shooting - but there is a common denominator thinking back -1) the 22 probably never zeroed in years 2) the shooters' ability seriously in question - 3) bad shot placement normally to high on forehead - most would have gone down if it had been a 308

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Years back my older brother,father and farm owner were out back of farm,huge hereford bullock who was completely feral was seen at close range on farm track.farm owner said"that would make good beef" blap blah.went brothers mini 14 two rounds into head and the hard work began.luckily they could get tractor to him. I didn't see beast but along with meat a cannon bone n foot came home.it was huge. Shot placement within range.

I got a 230 lb boar one night with my BRNO 22 shot him out of the car window on a remote road in Gisborne but that 22 at the 15 metre range it was would group into a one cent coin - one shot just above his ear hole and dead pig

Originally Posted by gimp

There's little advantage to anything else in hit probability until you're past maybe 400 metres.

I was about to say wtf does wind drift have to do with anything in this convo

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I have not taken a wapiti Samberg or rusa with .270 but have taken pretty much everything else mostly with 130 grn.

Getting pretty close to the gay slam there mate

Originally Posted by Gibo

I was about to say wtf does wind drift have to do with anything in this convo

I mean, you'd select a cartridge and bullet based on assumptions about terminal effectiveness and hit probability. Amongst other things. If you're satisfied with terminal effectiveness you'd only be thinking about hit probability. It's assumed but not always true that reduced wind drift improves hit probability.

Originally Posted by gimp

I mean, you'd select a cartridge and bullet based on assumptions about terminal effectiveness and hit probability. If you're satisfied with terminal effectiveness you'd only be thinking about hit probability. It's assumed but not always true that reduced wind drift improves hit probability.

Rationally. Irrationally you may select a cartridge and bullet based on any number of insane criteria

Bugger the popcorn is starting to get stuck in my teeth

I think 223 a legitimate deer cartridge. Personally I hunt with something larger to give me a wider margin of error. People should hunt with whatever they back themselves with.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? How many deer would I (or others) have to kill for the non-sensical arguments to abate? (Bullets blowing up on shoulders, lack of penetration, margin for error with larger calibres etc etc)

Hey, I’m fully aware that caliber debate is one of those never ending things, but I’m just interested to see what objective measure is proposed.

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

Originally Posted by gimp

223 75gr "TAP". this is a 75gr poly tipped bullet - basically a 75gr ELDM with a round tip to allow it to fit in AR15 magazines. Fired from a 10.5 inch barreled AR15 at 2200fps. Note the tremendously slow MV and the relative performance.








.308 155gr ELDM. Fired from a 26 inch barrel at 2789fps.

Ah yes the lack of penetration from .223

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Originally Posted by gimp

The Hague convention of 1899 actually

Ok yep forgot that one, that's the bullet construction bit (solid tip non expanding) but the nature of the wounds they produce has a mention in the Suggestions iirc. Been a while since I got LOAC'd on the way to a working event haha.

Originally Posted by gimp

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Bullet construction, sectional density, kinetic energy and frontal surface area all play a role. In the case of .223, the frontal surface area is relatively low and the KE is disproportionately high.
So yes it's possible that a specific .223 cartridge will have more penetration than a specific .308...Sure, I could buy that.
If you told me that the 5.56 EPR (M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round) penetrated better than a 7.62 hollowpoint or even 7.62 ball, I’d believe you. I’d probably still look for the data but at face value that would sound very plausible.

Originally Posted by gimp

Rationally. Irrationally you may select a cartridge and bullet based on any number of insane criteria

Criteria I used in making my last purchase. Calibre available in rifle I wanted, calibre capable of well killing the range of game I wish to hunt{ part of terminal effectiveness}, cartridge must be easily available in most parts of the world, as I wish to hunt over seas. And from that, cartridge must be legal for said hunting. Cartridge must be capable of killing at the ranges Im comfortable with{hit probability} . Cartridge must have good choice of suitable projectiles. {other part of terminal effectiveness}

Any of that irrational or insane?