Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm considering taking mine for wild cattle in October.

Well good fi you young Gimp..the .222 was more than adequate on big scrubby bulls,had to be very carefull though.
Some of the little pill's did have a habit of ..say bouncing off lol.
Whether or not your just talking shit about giving the mad cows a go or not..a 223 will sure as hell do the bizz.
Just do it right lol.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

Would those times be less frequent if you were using a more powerful "traditional" deer cartridge?
Not sure I get what you mean about the wild cattle?

Originally Posted by Shearer

Would those times be less frequent if you were using a more powerful "traditional" deer cartridge?
Not sure I get what you mean about the wild cattle?

Could only be less frequent if the more ‘traditional’ cartridge had less wind drift. That’s basically why I built a 22 creedmoor, because I’m not awesome enough to shoot big guns well. That’s the windy day gun. As for the animal giving a decent shot angle, that doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.

As for the wild cattle, I’m too chicken shit to hunt them with anything!

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Could only be less frequent if the more ‘traditional’ cartridge had less wind drift. That’s basically why I built a 22 creedmoor, because I’m not awesome enough to shoot big guns well. That’s the windy day gun. As for the animal giving a decent shot angle, that doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.

As for the wild cattle, I’m too chicken shit to hunt them with anything!

There's little advantage to anything else in hit probability until you're past maybe 400 metres.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

If they aren't steamed they drop the same as anything else. It's only when their blood is boiling that they get dodgy. .308 into the brain box doesn't help them much, they keep going if they have momentum but the control and central processing unit stops working and they tend to go in the straight line through everything until they either run out of go forward or something trips them up and they go down in a thrashing heap. I used to have a semi auto for those things, now not an option.

The military 147gr FMJ is designed for a totally different purpose than hunting rounds - they aren't intended for humane kills they are intended for Geneva Convention compliance.

I could start a thread documenting my attempt to kill every species of game animal in the country with the .223, but I’m such a shit hunter, most of us will be dead before I complete it!

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I could start a thread documenting my attempt to kill every species of game animal in the country with the .223, but I’m such a shit hunter, most of us will be dead before I complete it!

I have not taken a wapiti Samberg or rusa with .270 but have taken pretty much everything else mostly with 130 grn.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I have not taken a wapiti Samberg or rusa with .270 but have taken pretty much everything else mostly with 130 grn.

Getting pretty close to the gay slam there mate

The Hague convention of 1899 actually

Originally Posted by gimp

The Hague convention of 1899 actually

Ok yep forgot that one, that's the bullet construction bit (solid tip non expanding) but the nature of the wounds they produce has a mention in the Suggestions iirc. Been a while since I got LOAC'd on the way to a working event haha.

Bugger the popcorn is starting to get stuck in my teeth

I think 223 a legitimate deer cartridge. Personally I hunt with something larger to give me a wider margin of error. People should hunt with whatever they back themselves with.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? How many deer would I (or others) have to kill for the non-sensical arguments to abate? (Bullets blowing up on shoulders, lack of penetration, margin for error with larger calibres etc etc)

Hey, I’m fully aware that caliber debate is one of those never ending things, but I’m just interested to see what objective measure is proposed.

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Originally Posted by gimp

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Bullet construction, sectional density, kinetic energy and frontal surface area all play a role. In the case of .223, the frontal surface area is relatively low and the KE is disproportionately high.
So yes it's possible that a specific .223 cartridge will have more penetration than a specific .308...Sure, I could buy that.
If you told me that the 5.56 EPR (M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round) penetrated better than a 7.62 hollowpoint or even 7.62 ball, I’d believe you. I’d probably still look for the data but at face value that would sound very plausible.