Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Im not sure thats whats being said. I accept the 223 can foot it in big game hunting. Im just not sure it can claim equality.

It is the 224's in general hes talking about I think

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Hey, I’m not annoyed about anything. I was just interested to see if someone would lay down a challenge, as it would be something fun that could potentially raise a few eyebrows. To be fair, I think I’ll just go ahead and make up my own challenge anyway!

I really shouldn’t have expected any different from beginning a thread like this. I have bought shame on my family…..

I was shot in the leg by a .223 from close range in a hunting accident.
The round entered the lateral side of my left leg about 5cm below the knee. It lodged in my tibia. It caused a compression injury to my lateral meniscus. It caused a pulling tear to the medial meniscus. It also stretched and tore my medial collateral ligament, partially tore my patellar tendon and tore both the ACL and my PCL.
Didn’t really hurt at first, but it dropped me like a rock. I've always suspected that had it been a .308, it probably would have ripped my leg off at the knee. Better a chronically sore leg and a limp than no leg.

I took it as more 223 related from the original question.

[QUOTE]So, to the doubters- What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? /QUOTE]

Though Im not sure it makes much difference.

Another way of thinking about this - years ago a 243 with an 87 gn boolit was accepted as perfectly OK, the 224s are now throwing vastly better projectile designs (than were available 30+ years ago) theres no appreciable difference between a 80gn 0.556mm ELDM and a 6.0mm 87gn of say the 1970s

Are you running your ELDM at the same speed as the 87grain 6mm?

Quite a bit faster in the 22 CM . . .

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I was shot in the leg by a .223 from close range in a hunting accident.
The round entered the lateral side of my left leg about 5cm below the knee. It lodged in my tibia. It caused a compression injury to my lateral meniscus. It caused a pulling tear to the medial meniscus. It also stretched and tore my medial collateral ligament, partially tore my patellar tendon and tore both the ACL and my PCL.
Didn’t really hurt at first, but it dropped me like a rock. I've always suspected that had it been a .308, it probably would have ripped my leg off at the knee. Better a chronically sore leg and a limp than no leg.

Wow, you are I believe quite correct - a bigger caliber bullet would likely not have lodged in the tibia it would have passed straight through. I take my hat of to you though, you have experience something that most people haven't and lived to comment on the thread with actual first hand experience. In your case for whatever reason I would suggest that the bullet would not have been capable of the job the OP asked!

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Are you running your ELDM at the same speed as the 87grain 6mm?

80eldm 2900 out of a 22" Tikka. 2830 from a 20". (223).

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

well I believe we could all at least agree 223 will do the job but is not really ideal not compared to 308 270 7mm08 etc

Me listening to the boomers talking about cartridges...

I guess Remington and Winchester were successful in brainwashing you lot after more than a century of marketing. Remember that the rifle is usually sold new once and then resold many times after if it is a quality item, factory ammunition is where the margins are. A well maintained $1k rifle will probably shoot $5-10k+ worth of factory ammo before it needs to be rebarreled or scrapped.

Answer for them is to keep hyping up and releasing new cartridges whilst the bullets remain the same crappy design. Hornady tipped the game on it's head by actually improving the bullets first and then doing better cartridges to accommodate said bullets. Ironic how quick these other companies (Nosler, Remington, Winchester, Norma) will jump to make brass and loaded ammo according to Hornady's new releases, but their own cartridges go down like a wet fart in an enclosed space.

Hornady's bullets (even moreso the brass) might not be 'the best' but the important thing is they are:

1. Actually available to buy
2. Not stupid expensive at retail
3. Work very well (bullets moreso than the brass)

Hope you are aware that the only thing to touch the target is the bullet, and the animal is unaware whether the cartridge was a 222,223,224/ 270,6.8/ .284,7mm etc etc.

If it were possible to shoot the same animal twice, in the exact same place, same conditions, with the exact same bullet hitting at the exact same impact velocity, only difference being one is fired with a rifle and the other being fired via a huge amount of compressed air, I'm sure a few oldies and those influenced by them would still say the rifle performed much better...

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

And you cannot compare deer. The size and nature are totally different.
A yearling fallow or sika is a way different beast to a pumped up rutting stag of any breed.
The stated example of 594 ft/lbs is fine when all goes well. But an animal can recover (enough to get away) from 600 lbs a lot easier than the old fashioned recommendation of 1000ft/lbs.

Yeah nah.

Following that logic, bowhunting would not work.

A 100kg+ red will tip over from a .22lr going through the lugs. Might take a wee while for the leak to take effect but it will happen so long as the ribs are not in the way.

Originally Posted by Maxx

I remain of the view that there is value in using a calibre/projectile that blows big holes out the other side..... has helped me find a number of Sika bush hunting over the years.

Can't go anywhere with no brain, 1 shot penetrating into the skull cavity and calibre is largely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by TLB

..What people won't post in the thread is the times it hasn't worked because they pushed the envelope or the animal moved etc. Bit like the .223 thread I suspect.

You can miss or make a hash of it with any calibre.

Practise makes this less likey, and I suspect you will be inclined to practise more with a smaller cartridge that is cheaper to buy/reload.

If it were legal to hunt everything with a .224 calibre in the UK then my 7mm's in the cabinet would probably start sweating.

Originally Posted by caberslash

Yeah nah.

Following that logic, bowhunting would not work.

A 100kg+ red will tip over from a .22lr going through the lugs. Might take a wee while for the leak to take effect but it will happen so long as the ribs are not in the way.

Often arrows do not work.
An arrow low in the lungs takes a lot longer to kill an animal than an arrow high in the lungs. Sometimes days longer.
Low in the lungs allows the lung to drain. High and the lungs fill with blood and the animal effectively drowns.