Thread: Should I have shot this Deer?

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Fair points you make but it takes considerable time and observation on a deer farm here or a European game park to learn what deer will grow good heads and thats with following the same deer from birth for it's life. Learning through observation of wild deer is a whole level harder, so good on the OP for asking.
What conclusions have been learned on farms ? With spikers there is a direct positive correlation with body size and later antler size - so leave the big well grown solid spikers and shoot the small ones. Plane spikes that are thick and heavy with good length and spread - leave. Heavy spikes with pearling or little brow tines - leave. Sometimes a medium sized spiker has great spikes not just the biggest. Sometimes a big spiker has thin pencil spikes and can be shot with reasonable confidence - unless they are very thick at the base with a big pedicle. Late ones like the OP's will never amount to anything even with good genetics, they have missed the important period at three - four months old when pedicle growth takes place by not being at that age at the right time of year - they are out of sync with the change in photo period before winter. The OP's 2yr old stag was probably a small spiker a year ago and will never catch up - Bang !. If he had well placed brows and Beys of good length and a good shape I would leave him as good tops will come later. A really good young stag will be a miniature version of himself in five or six years and can carry 12 points at two. This is for wild deer. Some farm bred two year olds would give the NZ wild deer records a hiding https://www.deernz.org/assets/DINZ/D...EB-cropped.pdf Link has spikers and 2,3 year olds at 4 -500 SCI plus mature up to 900 inches SCI

I'm gonna need to draw myself a couple sketches to properly understand/remember this!

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Fair points you make but it takes considerable time and observation on a deer farm here or a European game park to learn what deer will grow good heads and thats with following the same deer from birth for it's life. Learning through observation of wild deer is a whole level harder, so good on the OP for asking.
What conclusions have been learned on farms ? With spikers there is a direct positive correlation with body size and later antler size - so leave the big well grown solid spikers and shoot the small ones. Plane spikes that are thick and heavy with good length and spread - leave. Heavy spikes with pearling or little brow tines - leave. Sometimes a medium sized spiker has great spikes not just the biggest. Sometimes a big spiker has thin pencil spikes and can be shot with reasonable confidence - unless they are very thick at the base with a big pedicle. Late ones like the OP's will never amount to anything even with good genetics, they have missed the important period at three - four months old when pedicle growth takes place by not being at that age at the right time of year - they are out of sync with the change in photo period before winter. The OP's 2yr old stag was probably a small spiker a year ago and will never catch up - Bang !. If he had well placed brows and Beys of good length and a good shape I would leave him as good tops will come later. A really good young stag will be a miniature version of himself in five or six years and can carry 12 points at two. This is for wild deer. Some farm bred two year olds would give the NZ wild deer records a hiding https://www.deernz.org/assets/DINZ/D...EB-cropped.pdf Link has spikers and 2,3 year olds at 4 -500 SCI plus mature up to 900 inches SCI

I've drawn myself a sketch to remember all this. When you say Trey and Brow tines are too short, how long would you be expecting them to be on a good potential 2 year old?

You hunted it, you packed it out, you get to eat it.
Congratulations on the result and the effort you put in.
Culling is not selective so it could have been hammered from the air if you didn't take it

Keep hunting and you will learn the area and the deer habits

Originally Posted by CBH Australia

Culling is not selective so it could have been hammered from the air if you didn't take it

There is very little official deer control in NZ, aerial or otherwise, however what small amount does take place is often selective e.g.

https://nzgameanimalcouncil.org.nz/w...-Fiordland.pdf

That said, as hunters with an interest in participating in management, we should be looking to contribute to maintaining low numbers of females wherever and whenever possible.

Originally Posted by Average-Lad

I've drawn myself a sketch to remember all this. When you say Trey and Brow tines are too short, how long would you be expecting them to be on a good potential 2 year old?

The Brow tines should be as long as the distance from the base to the Trey and the Beys similar on a velvet head that has grown as far as having the treys formed. The amount of growth above the trey tells us how far advanced the heads growth is. When the royals are starting to form the trey should be in proportion ( nearly as long) as the as the brow and Bey below it.
The following link to Tower farms has some great photos of velvet antler and hard antler heads and little vids. The different tyne length proportions can be seen in the velvet heads https://www.facebook.com/Towerfarmsdeer/

Originally Posted by Average-Lad

I've drawn myself a sketch to remember all this. When you say Trey and Brow tines are too short, how long would you be expecting them to be on a good potential 2 year old?

The Brow tines should be as long as the distance from the base to the Trey and the Beys similar on a velvet head that has grown as far as having the treys formed. The amount of growth above the trey tells us how far advanced the heads growth is. When the royals are starting to form the trey should be in proportion ( nearly as long) as the as the brow and Bey below it.
The following link to Tower farms has some great photos of velvet antler and hard antler heads and little vids. The different tyne length proportions can be seen in the velvet heads https://www.facebook.com/Towerfarmsdeer/

ooooo touchy subject Lad..... but kudos for putting it out there!

from my fairly extensive ongoing looking right into it all theory, typically speaking -- the general gist from what ive picked up by many but also some notable KIWIS are that Stags are hard to tell their "potential " until they have been given many ? 4+ maybe more some species years to even start to get an idea of what it may peak into- il note FWF for their info an effort* non affiliate.

the flip side is with Population control, speaking in higher populated areas, The Hinds Must be shot first over the Male if given the opertunity-- but say you are meat hunting an a almost mature velvet stag an a spike pop up side by side, I would like to hope everyone would shoot the Spike and heres Why.
That Spiker is 7? 8? years from his prime......
Your right now is in that Velvet Stags lifetime and if Not possibly Your Son or close friends hunting lifetime.... wouldnt you like to hear about His or Hers Fantastic Hunt when they got their MASSIVE deer - which coincidently happened to be in the same valley, similiar spot, 2? 3 ? years later - if not this past season - Because Not only YOU, but Tom, John, Rod an Derek all seen it in velvet, respected the animal for what it is, will be, IS... can be, an possibly will be when the times right an the lucky hunter strikes it?? (similiar to how FWF is co ord its future)


Everyone, an i mean Every single one (of You) I've ever spoke to has at one point expressed their total interest in that "Biggest Deer" per say- whatever the species-
Yet there is outweighed by the guys who hunt in summer for easy picking on velvet stags? an guys who spotlight fringe country an a spotlight never passes up a stag-
there is a mentality of IF i dont shoot it Now, Someone Else will... may ring true in some parts of kiwi but back country is tough with meat trade helis aswell i understand..(vic only faced with several year onslaught if brown it down in remote national park currently)

I think if everyone just thought a bit more about "when an where" - am i meat hunting - am i trophy hunting - can i re plan a hunt for it- do i need to kill it- with a "Stag" kept in high regard sort of ensures there is a prize out there an youre all not hunting ruahinie spec deer with a 1 in ?00000 chance of a true 1940s Otago or 50s Rakia head... at the end of the day, its the same blood still....

to close out, ive also said that every Hind you pass up (sambar) will breed an be 3 ? deer by the time you catch up to her again.. so you wack the girls and they cant breed ?
you wack a male, one walks in literally days later. she breeds.

anyway whatever.

hooroo

PS- edit-- i am guilty as sin for being a young greenhorn an a bit blase if you will... alot of potential deer shot in that 'name of pest control' when numbers were high. to be honest the fires an damage it done on its own, seeing the deer in strife, changed me life- so your mileage will vary dramatically**

Originally Posted by Average-Lad

TLDR: After a successful trip this weekend where I shot a spiker and a young stag for meat I'm after the guidance of the wiser and more game management minded hunters on this forum on whether I should have shot the young stag or not.


This is my second year hunting big game and I'm loving it!, headed off out of Christchurch on Friday afternoon for what I wanted to be a overnight hunt, but turned into two nights. I was targeting meat animals, whilst mindful that this region has alot of deer and hunters are encouraged to manage them as much as possible.

On the second night (because I spooked everything on night one and morning one) shot the larger of the two stags pictured first then shot the spiker. There was a third stag, looking same age as the larger one but with 8-10 points, so to me looked like it had alot of potential and was an easy choice to leave.

I didn't have the chance to shoot any hinds without fawns, which I would have preferred to over the stags.

I took all good meat off both animals and pack'd it some 6km with 1000m of elevation change in about 5hours back to my car, so I'm happy I didn't waste meat or an animals life. Pack weighed 50kg so right now I'm in some pain for it. Last time I carry two animals out solo.

My question for those of you with more experience and a heart for game management: Is the stag something I should have left because it has good potential or because we should always target hinds over stags or any other reason? If the stag has some marker of potential what is it?

Another perspective might be, that with high animals numbers in the area, as many as possible should be shot.

a good point to consider here is that with high deer numbers most DOC blocks North Island the trophy quality is likely crap - shoot them - the exceptions in NZ would be the Sika herd - Wakatipu / Stewart Island Whitetails - Dart Fallow - and the remains of the Fiordland Wapiti -some South Island areas for reds maybe have real potential but I don't really know them - if you want to see what a real red velvet stag looks like go onto the deer sales site select some of the Trophy breeders advertising and have a look - thats of course top end trophy stuff but just see the size comparison -you might see a good trophy in DOC land North Island if they have been near farmland and have had access to good pasture - but within Te Urewera and Ruahines -Wanganui area -Tararuas -likely rubbish - one exception could be East Coast Raukumara but thats a big doubt to - nah shoot

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Fair points you make but it takes considerable time and observation on a deer farm here or a European game park to learn what deer will grow good heads and thats with following the same deer from birth for it's life. Learning through observation of wild deer is a whole level harder, so good on the OP for asking.
What conclusions have been learned on farms ? With spikers there is a direct positive correlation with body size and later antler size - so leave the big well grown solid spikers and shoot the small ones. Plane spikes that are thick and heavy with good length and spread - leave. Heavy spikes with pearling or little brow tines - leave. Sometimes a medium sized spiker has great spikes not just the biggest. Sometimes a big spiker has thin pencil spikes and can be shot with reasonable confidence - unless they are very thick at the base with a big pedicle. Late ones like the OP's will never amount to anything even with good genetics, they have missed the important period at three - four months old when pedicle growth takes place by not being at that age at the right time of year - they are out of sync with the change in photo period before winter. The OP's 2yr old stag was probably a small spiker a year ago and will never catch up - Bang !. If he had well placed brows and Beys of good length and a good shape I would leave him as good tops will come later. A really good young stag will be a miniature version of himself in five or six years and can carry 12 points at two. This is for wild deer. Some farm bred two year olds would give the NZ wild deer records a hiding https://www.deernz.org/assets/DINZ/D...EB-cropped.pdf Link has spikers and 2,3 year olds at 4 -500 SCI plus mature up to 900 inches SCI

100%
When I posted I nearly included a line to say “also what Moa Hunter said” I left it off because it read like I would’ve written what you had if I got there first. Truth is I can’t speak to trophy potential with anywhere near that level of knowledge.

The OP post read to me like it was asking two questions, the one you answered and the more philosophical of ‘at what point am I getting greedy’. I could certainly speak to that one.

Average-Lad. My philosophy is: hunting for meat take as many animals as you want, as long as meat isn’t wasted. If trophy hunting be selective what animal to take and again don’t waste meat. If doing trophy herd management shoot females and inferior males, again if possible don’t waste meat. If in a culling situation, different situation, generally you’re effectively thinning to waste. Not everyone has the mindset for this. It pisses me off when I come across dead animals and only head, backsteaks or a hind leg taking when the animal is less than an hour’s easy walk to car park, especially in areas where I’ve carried out dozens of animals when meat hunting in years gone by. In saying that, I do culling work so maybe a bit hypocritical.

Here is a better link to velvet and hard antler photos than the previous one I posted https://www.facebook.com/Towerfarmsdeer/. The velvet heads that make good trophies have good shape and balance in the lower tynes and a good bulb above the trey. By this time of year all the mature animals are fully formed with antlers mineralizing into bone leaving nothing to guesswork

I'm just bloody envious OP could carry 50kg out on his back plus rifle, gear and himself. Maybe there was a time but its long gone. Excellent thread tho for many of us. I may be an old bastard by most counts but I'm still a young deer stalker. Love learning some of this stuff.

50 kg pack. Not 50 kg meat.

Originally Posted by Jhon

I'm just bloody envious OP could carry 50kg out on his back plus rifle, gear and himself. Maybe there was a time but its long gone. Excellent thread tho for many of us. I may be an old bastard by most counts but I'm still a young deer stalker. Love learning some of this stuff.

Just 50kg all up mate, had the rifle strapped to the pack. Done heavier packs before in my Army days but was a pretty technical route out so I was pushing it safety wise. I'll stick to one deer in future and spend some extra time cutting out all the rib and neck meat.