Thread: SPCA call out 1080 for what it is - good on you !!

Originally Posted by stug

I think we need another rule for the forum - "no Politics, religion or 1080"

Yes. Politics, religion and 1080 don't matter to us. Neither of them are everywhere. Ban talking about breathing too.

Sarcasm aside, is it not interesting how NZ Politics, Gareth's Conservationanity, and 1080 all feature in this story?

I've done my share of work in the bush too. Trapping stoats and working for a number of years setting up Maungatautari. The problem with trapping is that it's not just about possums. You've got to hit the rats and stoats too. Which means a shit load of traps. Trapping might be a viable alternative in the front country but sure as fuck isn't in the back country. Even if we had enough people to do it. Which we don't.

Originally Posted by Chur Bay

I've done my share of work in the bush too. Trapping stoats and working for a number of years setting up Maungatautari. The problem with trapping is that it's not just about possums. You've got to hit the rats and stoats too. Which means a shit load of traps. Trapping might be a viable alternative in the front country but sure as fuck isn't in the back country. Even if we had enough people to do it. Which we don't.

Possibly because economic incentives are currently getting poured into 1080 helicopter outfits? SPCA is proposing a giant U-turn in NZ thinking, not just a wee tweak.

Train em and pay em. Qualificatuon for citizenship is three years productive trapping. Put $30mill into trapping incentives and watch what happens. Too simple for the bureaucrats to grasp ay. Ffs !

Ambtitious idea. Definitely not silly but very ambitious.
I wonder how much it would all cost.

Originally Posted by tetawa

If the risks are understood, why is there blatant disregard to the manufacturers requirements, ie removing poisoned carcases.

Because the powers that be deem it to be unnecessary or impractical or both. I'm gunna go ahead and guess that removing every possum carcass from a 1080 drop in fiordland is pretty difficult

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Originally Posted by Nick-D

Its been around for a while now, there is a fairly good scientific understanding of the long term effects of 1080 exposure and its risks.

Trace exposure and long term effects likewise have a pretty good understanding of the toxicity, its bio availability, half life and how the body breaks it down. As they understand very well how the toxin works it is pretty simple to track its potential side effects.

There is no added risk profile noted in any of the studies I have read with regards to cancer. Do you consume bacon? Because that is scientifically proven and well understood to increase risk of cancer over time. Botulism sucks ass though so we take the trade off with the cancer causing preservatives.

Thoroughly agree with the predator free 2050 thing though. No chance it happens short of some crazy advancements in genetic engineering. Certainly wont happen with todays techology. I think we could probably get close to getting rid of possums and maybe mustelids but good luck getting rid of rats any time soon.

Its not perfect and I would love to see a reduction of its use, but I fail to see viable alternatives in many cases. I also think people who are vehemently against 1080 so often ignore the fact that it does in many cases help the native wildlife. Focus so much on the negatives that they forget the net result (as least as the credible evidence I have seen shows) is a positive one.

I would prefer to eat bacon however if 1080 is as safe as you think it is why not have a wee taste and let us know what the outcome is. I'm eager to hear the results

Originally Posted by Nick-D

Because the powers that be deem it to be unnecessary or impractical or both. I'm gunna go ahead and guess that removing every possum carcass from a 1080 drop in fiordland is pretty difficult

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Nick D. Maybe but removingctgem from flat roaded tracked forests and reserves is not. And how do they intend removing carcasses fom streams huh?
The use of it is gratuitous bullshit.
Chur Boy take note Sage et al are gonna blow $30 mill this year alone. You dont need to be even a junior bean counter to understand an annual incentive of that size would attract the best national and international entrepreunuers and lateral thinkers very quickly . Of course the drones in DoC and Regional Councils and MPI would be made redundant very quickly. Maybe that why it isnt happenning ay?

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@Nick-D You are representative of those in favour of 1080. As you have stated you have 'read the scientific studies 'etc Can you show me a single study on the effects of 1080 that has been properly run and peer reviewed by international experts. I have not seen any.
Why did the native Quail become extinct in a matter of three years when it had been so abundant that to shoot 100 in an afternoon was common ?? It was not predators that caused extinction. This is the same with many other extinctions. Why do many of our remaining at risk populations of native birds have such low reproductive rates even when faced with an abundance of breeding resources ??
I will tell you, in both instances it is introduced bacterial pathogens and bird diseases. The only way to save our remaining birds is to provide predator free 'inland islands' and hope that the protected remnant populations that have gone through a disease caused genetic bottleneck can restock forests over time. 1080 will undoubtedly cause the extinction of the Kea if the present policy of poison air drops is continued.
Please do not just assume that the science is correct, have a look at the following link. 40,000 Elephants slaughtered due to erroneous science.
https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...ge?language=en

There is plenty of published peer reviewed science man.

https://www.cawthron.org.nz/publicat...t-food-plants/

Much of the data gathering by doc wouldn't stand up to strict scientific review due to lack of control and small data sets, doc even admits as such. However the bulk and ongoing consistency of results show an uptake in fledgling success and massive reduction of predator numbers. In short the data we have shows time and again that the use of 1080 has a net positive result.

There is zero data scientifically or otherwise that refutes or invalidates this data. Just anecdotal evidence and testimony from people who are often far to emotionally involved to be objective.

Not to say there aren't fuckups and species which are more vulnerable to by kill such as carrion eaters. There are and they are reported as such. It ain't perfect, but they get better at using it all the time.

My major point here is having met many of the people out there looking after our birds and gathering the data, they are passionate and committed. If (as many anti 1080 roponants claim) the poison was having massive negative impacts on the very things these people are trying to protect then they would report it. We would be hearing it from all sides.

I see both sides man, I would like to see a reduction of the use of aerial baits in general. I just don't see an economically or functionally viable alternative right now.

We all realise that the last review included a mandate to push forward with alternative practices right?

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There is one major problem with trapping. If you make people do it they will take the easy route and trap close to the track. Trampers will see the traps and think "good, something is happening". Problem is 100m back and no trapping happening. So we pay them by tail...sweet, then they trap the easy ones and breed them as fast as they can (Tried by the english in India- google the "Cobra effect" they made the problem worse not better.) The only ones who will trap the "hard country" are those dedicated and determined to succeed. Problem is they will soon be managed out by those in charge for poor results and be made to trap where they can catch more animals.

There is only one real solution and it will never work. Einstein saw to that. (Go back and DONT BLOODY RELEASE THEM TO START WITH!!!) If total eradication was even remotely possible then rabbits would not exist in NZ and the mackenzie basin station holders could get back to farming rather than rabbit control.

So in conclusion - Total removal or eradication is not achievable, and leaving them to their own devices is not a solution either, all we can do is try to manage the problem with the least amount of collateral damage.

I have seen the damage 1080 can do to an area. What was once alive with birds, insects and animals with the orchestra of nature at full blast, there is now only silence- not even a blow fly disturbs the eerie lack of life. There has to be a better way, but I am damned if I can see it. Biological options such as viral or genetic controls are not what I see as an option. Every one we have tried has led us into the mess we are in now. Too many rabbits....Lets release weasels and stoats etc. I want a scottish hedge, lets bring in Gorse....Too much gorse, quick bring in some goats- they eat gorse.....Oh well we are well fucked now, lets just drop 1080 on everything.

On the other hand We cannot sit back and not do anything actively to control these pests while we work out what is a better way.

So rather than keep shouting "Ban 1080", lets start a "This is better than 1080" campaign. We just have to find a better and more effective method.

I am Anti 1080, but I am also Anti Mustilid and Anti Pest. Not sold that possums are completely guilty of what they are accused of, but they can bugger off as well.

Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

I would prefer to eat bacon however if 1080 is as safe as you think it is why not have a wee taste and let us know what the outcome is. I'm eager to hear the results

Well 1080 is cereal baits right? Maybe with a splash of milk and a coffee on the side??

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Originally Posted by Woody

I'm 73 and regard the mass use of 1080 poison as a total and largely irrational affront our NZ economy, to my forbears, my environment and my values.

Geeze your OLD!!! Happy New Year!!!

Originally Posted by Nick-D

I am very careful of which information I take as verbatim. That's why I try to read actual scientific studies, not cherry picked articles or second hand anecdotal evidence.

Like I said the toxicity and health risks (of which there are some) are well documented and understood. I can only formulate an opinion based on real data. And the data we have shows low risk to public health.

I hope we can find a viable alternative bit I really don't see one right now

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Now put some logic to it, It is just wrong to spread any poison from the air all over your country. There has to be a better way!!

Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Broadcasting a deadly poison from the air, outside the manufactures guidelines, can never be a good thing no matter what you are trying to achieve.

One day 1080 will be just like DDT, CCA, 245-T, Dioxin, Agent Orange, Mercury, Asbestos, Smoking, lead paint, lead in fuel, the list goes on & on.

Yeah its all good, safe as houses mate...nek minit......

You missed roundup ! ...The goto spray for most horticulturists , farmers and everyone in between they used to say it was so safe you could almost drink it oh how the times change , im against any poison or spray or drench or antibiotic that effects non targets 1080 is so broad it does not specifically target 1 species or 2 or 3 or 4 it just gets sprayed around the hills and what ever happens happens some say thats good.

Originally Posted by Nick-D

I didn't realise I was in charge of pest control development, I'll get right on to it....

Money will be made either way. I really don't see there being some big conspiracy here, shotty management? Probably. Silly drops a to fill budget? Likely. But the people on the ground fighting for our wildlife are good people with a passion for our native flora and fauna.

Seriously though, what are the alternatives? Really the only other even remotely considerable alternative is trapping.

The anti 1080 community is pretty naive when presenting this as a complete replacement imo. The cost and scale of a trapping operation large enough to cover the entirety of our native landscape would be astronomical. It presents so many challenges like cost, terrain, scale and staffing. It's a hard and thankless job being a trapper and ime requires a tough, adaptable and hardworking individual to do effectively. Where are we going to come up with thousands of said indivuals all of a sudden? Who pays for it? How do we train all these people? What does the bush look like with so many trappers living there?

There's no perfect answer here, but the fact remains, if we stop 1080 tomorrow, evidence suggests many of our native species would likely be lost.

I hope I see the day where we have the tech to phase 1080 out or remove predators entirely. As for now it's what we got

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Suppose it was pretty tough and lonely on the deer cullers in the 50s and 60s, no computers, phones, home comforts, they just got on and did it, even write books about it, they’re weren’t dumb buggers. No GPS, just maps and an old 303 with open sights, many times alone for months in the snow, fly camping. The worlds gone soft, we can’t do that again a million times better with all the mod cons we have today? Stop the excuses? Just Do It!