Thread: Summer hunting .....a question of ethics??

Originally Posted by Lentil

If you have a hind lined up at this time of the year, do you think about the consequences


Could we end up with a herd out of balance by protecting hinds?

Could we be subjecting a herd to a horrible death by 1080 poison if we don't take hinds and reduce the numbers.


Or maybe I just think too much!!!!

I think it's important we do think about Lentil. When I started hunting in the 80s, there were buggar all deer around (due to helicopter shooting) in spots I go to now and there are deer everywhere.
I worry that while we hunters are enjoying the more bountiful population of animals, we are letting the numbers get out of control and herd quality may become a problem. Cam Speedy is advocating harvesting more hinds and also wants more hind jaws to study with Alan Jackson, so they can help us all to better understand our bush ecosystem and deer resource. I try to support these selfless guys.
I also worry that Government may either declare war on browsing animals again if our bush is threatened again by overpopulation.
Personally, I'll shoot pretty much any deer which crossed my path as I'm there to enjoy the bush and feed my family with 'free' meat. The exception to this is Roar hunting for stags.

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

I think it's important we do think about Lentil. When I started hunting in the 80s, there were buggar all deer around (due to helicopter shooting) in spots I go to now and there are deer everywhere.
I worry that while we hunters are enjoying the more bountiful population of animals, we are letting the numbers get out of control and herd quality may become a problem. Cam Speedy is advocating harvesting more hinds and also wants more hind jaws to study with Alan Jackson, so they can help us all to better understand our bush ecosystem and deer resource. I try to support these selfless guys.
I also worry that Government may either declare war on browsing animals again if our bush is threatened again by overpopulation.
Personally, I'll shoot pretty much any deer which crossed my path as I'm there to enjoy the bush and feed my family with 'free' meat. The exception to this is Roar hunting for stags.

So the possibility of leaving a fawn to slowly starve to death is ok with you?

No more so than than the thought of the same occurring through a 1080 drop Sneeze. I do appreciate your sentiment toward animal welfare, but can't support the notion we should avoid shooting all hinds for the Spring and Summer which WOULD lead to overpopulation quickly. Personally, I try to shoot 'em both...

Well we all have our reasons and make our own choices, often they change as we get older and hopefully wiser. We also have our own opinions and mine is that aside from the " shooting them both" bit, your choices here are poor and your reasoning is worse.

Perhaps when you're done up on your high horse you might walk back to the glass house you surely live in(like the rest of us) and realise a couple of windows are broken

I do most of my hunting in the kaimais. After 12 hours walking around and seeing just 1 deer, a bullet is sent its way regardless of sex or age.

Some of you obviously have never heard a fawn bleat all day and night for several days. I have had them run up to within yards of me thinking I was mum, stressed and probably starving. I have not shot a hind on foot since I cant remember.

Each to their own tho. I think like sneeze said, our attitudes and priorities change as we get older and wiser. If I ever go back to doing venison fulltime I know I will most likely need to overlook those standards to make a buck.
I am sure however, I will continue to maintain them when hunting on foot, for the rest of my life. I would have always seen around 1 spiker, knobby or yearling hind in every 5 or so deer I bump into, easy odds as far as I am concerned.

R93 and Sneeze, you may be right that with age/experience our shoot anything attitudes may change. But I'm guessing you have probably had easy access to large populations of deer in times gone by & even perhaps were employed shooters.
I, however, am a self taught hunter, who never had anyone 'in the know' to take me or even tell me honestly where reasonable numbers of deer were. In places we tried as teenagers and early twenty-something's, there were either next to no deer, or we had encounters with bastard helicopter recovery shooters, ruining our investment, venison opportunity and adventure in one foul swoop. So, now that I know of some spots which produce, I make time, find the funds, plan and prepare and drive for hours to give myself an opportunity to put a deer in the freezer for my family to enjoy. And given that I've shot only six deer in 24 years of bloody hard work hunting, I'll shoot dead whatever deer I see.
Having said that, don't make the mistake of judging me and categorising me as heartless or not one of the good guys. I have nothing but respect for our bush & animals and have broken my own heart a few times by not placing my shots in various animals (bunnies & hares mainly) well, causing pain and suffering. We do live and learn. One of the things I hope to maintain as I 'gain wisdom', is not to become self-righteous about what 'hunting' really is

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

R93 and Sneeze, you may be right that with age/experience our shoot anything attitudes may change. But I'm guessing you have probably had easy access to large populations of deer in times gone by & even perhaps were employed shooters.
I, however, am a self taught hunter, who never had anyone 'in the know' to take me or even tell me honestly where reasonable numbers of deer were. In places we tried as teenagers and early twenty-something's, there were either next to no deer, or we had encounters with bastard helicopter recovery shooters, ruining our investment, venison opportunity and adventure in one foul swoop. So, now that I know of some spots which produce, I make time, find the funds, plan and prepare and drive for hours to give myself an opportunity to put a deer in the freezer for my family to enjoy. And given that I've shot only six deer in 24 years of bloody hard work hunting, I'll shoot dead whatever deer I see.
Having said that, don't make the mistake of judging me and categorising me as heartless or not one of the good guys. I have nothing but respect for our bush & animals and have broken my own heart a few times by not placing my shots in various animals (bunnies & hares mainly) well, causing pain and suffering. We do live and learn. One of the things I hope to maintain as I 'gain wisdom', is not to become self-righteous about what 'hunting' really is

Seriously Mate ? You start off defending your actions with the threat of " over population" and now your struggling to find 6 deer in 24 years?
You claim to be heart broken over some poor shot placement on rabbits while wilfully shooting lactating hinds?
And Im living in a glass house?
Still I guess anyone that has any opinion at all lives in a house with at least a little glass in it.
Im not talking about mistakes, god knows we all make enough of them,this is about conscious decisions and being aware of the outcome, so if having an opinion against intentional acts resulting in animals starving to death is getting on my high horse then so be it. I don't get up on one very often, maybe I'll take a liking to the view.
So is this just a matter of degrees maybe?, would you let a neighbour starve a dog to death? or a pet goat? is it simply a case of out of sight out of mind? Would you still shoot that hind with the fawn at foot if the fawn spent the next month slowly fading away on your back lawn while your family looked on?
Im not all up in arms here ,just my opinion FWIW and maybe some food for thought .

If you read my post H4L I said each to their own. I dont really care what other people do, (shooting trophy potential stags claiming it as meat, bothers me, but) as they are the ones that have to live with their decisions and actions. I would be a huge hypocrite any way you look at it if I did judge. My son is coming of age and learning to hunt. I will pass my feelings on to him, but in the end it is his choice how he matures as a hunter.
I started hunting in NZ in 1980. I know all about the numbers game. People moaning about numbers now, baffle me, as it is as easy to find a deer now than I have ever seen it.
It is my personal choice, that I feel good about, of not shooting mature hinds.

Originally Posted by R93

If you read my post H4L I said each to their own. I dont really care what other people do, (shooting trophy potential stags claiming it as meat, bothers me, but) as they are the ones that have to live with their decisions and actions. I would be a huge hypocrite any way you look at it if I did judge. My son is coming of age and learning to hunt. I will pass my feelings on to him, but in the end it is his choice how he matures as a hunter.
I started hunting in NZ in 1980. I know all about the numbers game. People moaning about numbers now, baffle me, as it is as easy to find a deer now than I have ever seen it.
It is my personal choice, that I feel good about, of not shooting mature hinds.

I think you're signature at the bottom of the page sums it up anyway! Good post

Yep, I get it guys. And let's just all agree that we don't know each other from an Arab, so passing any judgement over just a few words is foolish on this issue.
One of you said something about hearing a fawn bleating while looking for mum for days on end... So why didn't you capture or shoot it?
I guess it is a case of out of sight out of mind for me. Rightly or wrongly, I don't class wild introduced game animals in quite the same way I would a domestic or even farm animal. So their plight is perhaps doomed in my mind. I have been happy to trap possums for a job once, and I've enjoyed hunting pigs with dogs on occasion too. Both are absolutely barbaric and arguably inhumane, but I can easily justify each as they are introduced and arguably 'pests'. Sometimes the methods aren't ideal. Neither is the knowledge of a starving and traumatised fawn running around in the bush.
As for my six deer in 24years... I've shot dead 6, all the rest are probably still running! At least one of those animals which I haven't claimed was a good stag which copped a .308 somewhere in his front end. I only hope he didn't suffer for long or that it was only a flesh wound. And it is no secret that deer numbers everywhere have increased dramatically over the past 5-10 years. I get onto deer every trip anywhere worth going these days, but it was a very different story in the 80s & 90s on public land in the central north.
So, I believe we are indeed on the brink of overpopulation on some areas of the central north, and if we don't do our bit to knock those numbers back, DoC, F&B and the AHB will all be saying to the Govt that the Game Animal Council has failed and the best policy is to eradicate deer using seek & destroy helicopters and widespread aerial1080. Back to square one

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

One of you said something about hearing a fawn bleating while looking for mum for days on end... So why didn't you capture or shoot it?

I did when I caught up with it. Have probably dispatched half a dozen fawns like that.

By the way, lots of the possums, rabbits, hares and feral cats I killed were also lactating and pregnant. I feel no more remorse for any if them than I do for any of the males