Thread: Tahr cull doc betrayal

Originally Posted by chalkeye

I still can't find any other articles to corroborate the initial story (not even on the ODT's site).

Interestingly, the minutes of the last Game Animal Council's meeting give the impression that at least some kind of more concrete relationship between GAC and DOC around game management is being formed:
https://nzgac.org.nz/sites/default/f...ruary_2018.pdf

With that said, I hadn't heard of the GAC (mainly due to my own ignorance), they seem to have an incredibly low budget and basically zero online presence (no newsletter, no facebook page etc). Fingers crossed with the enactment of the trophies levy, they'll have the resources to make good on their purpose.

Just Read the 19 Feb GAC meeting minutes from the link posted by Chalkeye. My take is that we could all be very confident in GAC and need to get behind them. I had certainly heard about them but didn't know what they were up to until I read the minutes.
From the minutes 9.Financial report shows a balance of only $15490.06 - shortfall by 2019 if there is no levy (on the trophies taken by overseas hunters) or alternative funding.
12a Himalayan Tahr Control Plan ' There is no current control plan and the latest plans are for 2015' The next plan will be for the whole of the Tahr range.
Also of interest is a mention of CWD a prion disease that would doom deer hunting if it ever got here and a 'Parliamentary Hunt' for MP's at a Hunt Park property.

Originally Posted by headcase

Probably already been said but head of the Godley and head of the Dobson is in the National Park. This cull is not going outside the boundrys this year at least. I expect Doc is now reverting back to its annual culls that were policy before Doc ran out of funds for their annual cull about 5 -7 years back and stopped, while putting all their money on the AATH agreement to shoot 5 nannies for every bull taken, and also on recreational hunters bluster they could control them. We havnt, we failed, Doc has been given more funds to get them under controll again. They will.

End of story.

Cos I’m real sure I’ve seen lots of hunters saying they could control tahr numbers without any other methods.
You a mouthpiece for DOC now HC?
A good start would be DOC publishing animal density maps so hunters know where to bomb hard. Why not?
Or ring the office and find out the tahr guy isn’t in this week so no info.
If hunters aren’t kept in the loop their contribution is minimised, I’d suggest that’s on purpose.

This is the sort of data DOC have published in the past:

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...hr/tahr-culls/

I expect that the only areas that recreational hunters would "bomb hard" would be where there is ute and hut access. Fringe stuff that wouldn't make much of a difference. I have very little faith in recreational hunters making any sort of dent in them.

Originally Posted by ethos

Cos I’m real sure I’ve seen lots of hunters saying they could control tahr numbers without any other methods.
You a mouthpiece for DOC now HC?
A good start would be DOC publishing animal density maps so hunters know where to bomb hard. Why not?
Or ring the office and find out the tahr guy isn’t in this week so no info.
If hunters aren’t kept in the loop their contribution is minimised, I’d suggest that’s on purpose.

The problem as I see it, is that 'Hunters' are such a fragmented disorganised bunch of non trusting individualists that we are our own worst enemy. Have a read of the 'Game Animal Council' documents online 'Ethos' and see what a massive headwall of work is in front of us. As a group of individualist moaners we wont get anywhere with any Govt departments. The GAC has got statutory powers and representation under an act of Parliament thanks to Peter Dunn. To be fair to us as the hunting public GAC have been so quiet that I had forgotten about them until 'Chalkeye' posted a link, BUT behind the scenes they have been doing plenty. Please have a read up 'Ethos' I would like to know what you think of GAC.

Originally Posted by Tahr

This is the sort of data DOC have published in the past:

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...hr/tahr-culls/

I expect that the only areas that recreational hunters would "bomb hard" would be where there is ute and hut access. Fringe stuff that wouldn't make much of a difference. I have very little faith in recreational hunters making any sort of dent in them.

File this under self fulfilling prophecy.
If hunters aren’t included, stats will show AATH and DOC culls doing all the work even more enter further minimisation of hunters stake.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

The problem as I see it, is that 'Hunters' are such a fragmented disorganised bunch of non trusting individualists that we are our own worst enemy. Have a read of the 'Game Animal Council' documents online 'Ethos' and see what a massive headwall of work is in front of us. As a group of individualist moaners we wont get anywhere with any Govt departments. The GAC has got statutory powers and representation under an act of Parliament thanks to Peter Dunn. To be fair to us as the hunting public GAC have been so quiet that I had forgotten about them until 'Chalkeye' posted a link, BUT behind the scenes they have been doing plenty. Please have a read up 'Ethos' I would like to know what you think of GAC.

It’s all we have so we should get behind it.
I’d like to see less guides and more rec hunters represented, also better communication of what they are doing and better ways to liaise back and listen to hunters - might require a functional NZDA tho.

NZDA are aware of tahr numbers and have been for months. They are really the only significant organised hunting group in NZ to my knowledge? I don't know what is going on at high level between DOC and NZDA to organise volunteer culls to bring numbers down. I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame for lack of hunter participation in culling on DOC. I'm signed up for TIG culls and no-one has contacted me to participate in anything.

Originally Posted by Tahr

This is the sort of data DOC have published in the past:

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...hr/tahr-culls/

I expect that the only areas that recreational hunters would "bomb hard" would be where there is ute and hut access. Fringe stuff that wouldn't make much of a difference. I have very little faith in recreational hunters making any sort of dent in them.

I've quoted these numbers in this very thread, in the context of "rec hunters contribution is historically small compared to DOC/AATH SAD". However in 2012 TIG culls removed 707 tahr, DOC was 2269 or thereabouts. What conclusion you draw depends on how you wish to spin it. But 707 animals culled at somewhere between $20-120 per kill (there are some numbers somewhere on the DOC website from the mid 2000s but I can't find them right now)... is a significant amount of free control.

Hunters can absolutely make a good contribution to tahr control, but hunting groups need to actively get involved and advocate to do it, and they need to be honest about numbers seen etc - lying about kill returns or numbers seen doesn't help with a productive relationship

Originally Posted by ethos

Cos I’m real sure I’ve seen lots of hunters saying they could control tahr numbers without any other methods.
You a mouthpiece for DOC now HC?
A good start would be DOC publishing animal density maps so hunters know where to bomb hard. Why not?
Or ring the office and find out the tahr guy isn’t in this week so no info.
If hunters aren’t kept in the loop their contribution is minimised, I’d suggest that’s on purpose.

DOC could be better with publicising information, about hunting as well as many other things. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by institutional inertia

Originally Posted by gimp

DOC could be better with publicising information, about hunting as well as many other things. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by institutional inertia

I’d not attribute it to malice, but as seen with AATH, the department has an agenda and hunting mostly (as they see it) doesn’t fit with it, uncomfortably for some they are still required to foster it.

Edit to add: other case in point DOC WARO debacle in ruahines, found at fault then not following through with promised review.

As I posted on 2/7 according to GAC, THERE IS NO CURRENT HIMALAYAN TAHR CONTROL PLAN. THE LATEST PLAN IS FOR 2015. So the question to be asked is 'When the plan expired why was it not renewed' ?
I don't know why. Regarding notification from Doc, we can only guess that with no current plan there is no mechanism to publicly notify Tahr numbers or controls. Shouldn't hunters take some responsibility for this ??

No.
How TF would you or I know in 2015 the plan lapsed? DOC is very happy to minimise hunter interest/input and not notify or consult where they can get away with it.
How is it our fault? Don’t be one of the hunters that’s too quick to throw us all under the bus.

Originally Posted by ethos

No.
How TF would you or I know in 2015 the plan lapsed? DOC is very happy to minimise hunter interest/input and not notify or consult where they can get away with it.
How is it our fault? Don’t be one of the hunters that’s too quick to throw us all under the bus.

Well we should make our business to know how these things work otherwise we are going to be facing a never ending stream of surprises and be continually on the back foot. Who wrote the last plan? Were any hunting groups represented ? Where was the plan Gazetted ?? Why didn't you and I read it and pay attention to the expiry period ?? You are quite right that DOC is happy … etc. It is our fault because for the most part hunters are procrastinators when it comes to forming up, uniting and having a collective voice.

I doubt trampers read the legislation governing the land they walk in to see if its lapsed before they go off walking. DOC has a duty to foster hunting that it is seriously neglecting, intentionally in all likelihood.

The way forward is to value the contribution of recreational hunters and encourage it, not deny and minimise it. When hunters feel they have skin in the game they are more likely to contribute even more to animal control. This costs DOC nothing and fulfills their mandate of fostering recreation.
There is a trust deficit for the department to repair first.
I feel hunters have more in common with Ms Sage than the previous government- that is we don’t seek a price on the head of everything ( AATH under the last govt) greens share a love of wild places. Cull if needed I’d rather see low numbers, healthy environment and no AATH overflying me in the back country than out of control numbers and rich tourists getting precedence. Tahr won’t be eradicated any time soon.
Yeah politics