Thread: TB in possums - not many if any

Originally Posted by JoshC

Those photos are so set up it is not funny.

But in the same valley I could take you about 3 kms north, cross over the road into land administered by DoC, it's been aerial 1080's every 3-4 years for the last 15-20 years. The silence is deafening. It sure wasn't possums and rats eating birds that shut the place up.

yes for sure, i'm not doubting that. What i am trying to get across is possums eat birds and eggs as well, we just don't know how many. I haven't researched 1080 so don't know if it is good or bad either way but something has to be done about the possum population.

You're exactly right, possums do need to be controlled, because they damage our native bush, which is what I said in my first post. But not because they "eat birds" and "spread TB". That's DOC and AHB's excuses for needing to throw 1080 about. To control possums a variety of control methods need to be used, it's like killing any pest, one method alone rarely works.

Originally Posted by JoshC

Those photos are so set up it is not funny.

But in the same valley I could take you about 3 kms north, cross over the road into land administered by DoC, it's been aerial 1080's every 3-4 years for the last 15-20 years. The silence is deafening. It sure wasn't possums and rats eating birds that shut the place up.

Ok JC I thought you were referring to DOC ( public land ) not land that is not controlled by the DOC. I to know a few areas that I would say are special, birds aplenty, deer and other PESTS and these areas are not administered by DOC. There areas as we know are through out the country and as we know once again there are many fortunate hunters that either own or hunt these areas with permission.These hunters that do hunt these areas are happy with their hunting and (many ) have no idea what 1080 does,only what they hear.
If all of these places were bombed as heavily as the DOC land (public land) they would soon come to understand the real, bigger picture I'm sure.
Real hands on experience with 1080 and what it really does only sits with a minority of out doors types.The majority rules,propaganda is a very powerfull tool when fed to the gullible.
Life however is far far to short to be getting uptight about what some see as being the only solution.Us older bods have been and seen,aint a lot different now to what it was then.

Originally Posted by smidey

this image sums it up well i think

This picture is a good example of all is not what we think it is. It is a commercial Image produced by Nga Manu Images. It is for sale right now and has appeared in publications as a native birds nest, a thrushes nest and a song thrush's nest. So you it can see it can be whatever you want it to be. The word Image give a good clue. With half tame animals and the use of bait you can train possums and rats to do anything.

DOC has admitted to their embarrassment that the image is Doctored. You would also have to ask why, DOC with all their cameras set up recording nesting birds has been unable to film a clear shot of possums robbing nests. The contents of thousands of possum stomachs have been examined with nil or little evidence of nest predation.

WELL THERE YOU GO.

Originally Posted by JoshC

You're exactly right, possums do need to be controlled, because they damage our native bush, which is what I said in my first post. But not because they "eat birds" and "spread TB". That's DOC and AHB's excuses for needing to throw 1080 about. To control possums a variety of control methods need to be used, it's like killing any pest, one method alone rarely works.

totally agree, the primary issue is fauna destruction but when you consider the harm on birds and the TB issue that just increases the importance of controlling them. they probably do more harm to birds by eating the fauna than eating them directly but that is probably very hard to measure accurately either way but it does happen.

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

This picture is a good example of all is not what we think it is. It is a commercial Image produced by Nga Manu Images. It is for sale right now and has appeared in publications as a native birds nest, a thrushes nest and a song thrush's nest. So you it can see it can be whatever you want it to be. The word Image give a good clue. With half tame animals and the use of bait you can train possums and rats to do anything.

DOC has admitted to their embarrassment that the image is Doctored. You would also have to ask why, DOC with all their cameras set up recording nesting birds has been unable to film a clear shot of possums robbing nests. The contents of thousands of possum stomachs have been examined with nil or little evidence of nest predation.

of course it is doctored for marketing/advertising or what ever the task is, either staged with trained animals or photoshopped etc or both. to those that think this is a "wild caught" image, you had better not book a ticket with virgin airlines in the hope of finding a virgin wife or feed your large mrs special K to make her look like the woman in the ad

the image depicts what is going on. There is other photo graphic/video evidence of it happening which i believe. the extent of it is debatable.

Originally Posted by smidey

totally agree, the primary issue is fauna destruction but when you consider the harm on birds and the TB issue that just increases the importance of controlling them. they probably do more harm to birds by eating the fauna than eating them directly but that is probably very hard to measure accurately either way but it does happen.

Presumably you mean the flora, which in nz is adapted to browsing animals like the Moa.
Obviously out of control populations of things like possums/deer/pigs/cham/tahr will do damage but in this day and age with the value of fur/skins and the value of WARO and ease of accesibility with helicopters and jet boats and tracks better gear capable of shooting much longer ranges etc etc etc we will never again see mobs of hundreds of deer like in the 50s and 60s and totally eaten out bush understorys on public land.

yes sorry, flora

Bear in mind that DoC used those bullshit photo's knowing they were false until knowledgeable public pressure forced them to desist from deliberately misleading the public. Today, it remains a very good example of how they should not be trusted.
For that matter, most of the spin about trappers not being economically viable compared to 1080 poisoning, put out by DoC, the AHB and the PCE is also deliberate misleading of their taxpaying public.

I extracted under an OIA and Ombudsman's Act request, the full analysis of the cumulative averaged costs of the AHB 1080 operations as identified by government contracted independent auditors. The true cost was over $55 per hectare, whereas they have been misleading the public for many years claiming the costs were only in the $10 PER HA RANGE.

The truth is, that if possum trappers were paid this rate per ha, they would be making in the order of $600 per day gross, but even if a trapper only covered 10 ha per day for only half the year he would still gross over $100,000 per year. On top of that he would earn anther $15,000 if he was to take fur from just a single possum per ha. If he caught 5 per ha he would gross an extra $70.000 Potential gross per trapper about $170,000 per annum. On top of that there are the associated benefits of employment, ancillary industries such as the $140million per annum blended wool possum fibre industry and more employment. Of course, the bureaucrats would diminish as would the millionaires who currently suck the 1080 tit at the expense of the taxpayers.
And Smidey old chap, possums can actually be beneficial in moderate numbers in lowland forests as an agent for pollination.

When alternatives are sought, any businessman would first be seeking the REAL costs as a basis for analysis. This basic premise is one which the bureaucrats have studiously avoided revealing to the public and is the main reason trapping has been suppressed. Bloody good on fellows like Time out I say.

Sorry woody, your trapping figures are way out. There's no way you'd be able to continuously average 10ha per day in the back country (to <5% RTCI).

So lets not give it a go< just drop some more green rain?

Originally Posted by kimjon

Sorry woody, your trapping figures are way out. There's no way you'd be able to continuously average 10ha per day in the back country (to <5% RTCI).

Actually you can. Especially if your given the $55 per ha (2010 cost. More today) on top of the earnings from skins and carcasses kimjon. This is where the public are simply believing the naysayers within the pro 1080 poison interests instead of properly analysing and field proving. At the least, a possum trap line will draw possums from 100 metres either side. Therefore for each kilometre of distance covered by a line, 20 hectares are trapped. Even at retirement age most reasonably fit men can cover a 10 km round trip in a day. That's potentially 200ha per day. Assume 4 trips allowing prebaiting, the daily coverage properly trapped is 50 ha per day. Then deduct days for admin, servicing, wet weather, access etc. The 10 ha per day I used in a previous post is extremely conservative. I reckon if trapper were offered $55 per ha on top of their skins, fur and carcasses there would be a line over a mile long of applicants for the jobs. Good men could easily earn over $500 per day. The trouble is, the vested interests and bureaucrat will keep refusing and supressing the option of subsidising trapping to the equivalent TRUE cost of 1080 poisoning in order to save their plush unproductive arses and their million dollar 1080 contract incomes. This is not simply a problem relating to 1080; it is a problem of irresponsible central and local government operations across the board throughout NZ. There are countless examples occurring every month. Dunedin drains; Canterbury Council run by Commissioners; many councils massive interest debts; burgeoning rates increases--- the list goes on , and is getting worse.

10km round trip, with a trap every 25m equals (10,000m/25m x 0.75kg/trap = 300kg!), hope you've got a strong back pack?

Kj

You probably didn't know what to look for.
I have skinned and post mortemed 1000's of possums( privately and for MAF) from Taupo to Wellington and have come across TB in all areas as well as TB in pigs(50% infection rate) in Wgtn and TB in deer out of National Park.
1080 is still our best option BUT over the years it has been the arrogant we know best attitude of the people(DOC and AHB) using it who have stuffed up.
Firearms are safe until some idiot gets hold of one, we shouldn't ban firearms because of a few idiots, but the way the media( a few members of it) portray it all firearm owners are potential mass murderers.
Its the same with 1080 and cyanide it's safe in the right hands and used sensibly.