Thread: Thermal gear. Should we have it?

Its no no on Public Land after dark if its on a gun with a mag in it. If you just have a thermal in the hand then it can be used. Thats my understanding. Does seem like a bit of a grey area though.

New Department of Conservation permit conditions - artificial light, night vision, and thermal imaging.

The Department of Conservation have recently added, torches, night vision and thermal imagers to the restrictions on a recreational hunting permit:

The following activities are strictly prohibited under this Permit during the hours of darkness (½ hour after sunset to ½ hour before sunrise):

• discharging a firearm
• use of spotlights, torches, vehicle headlights, or any other artificial light source
• use of night vision equipment, infra red and heat detecting devices.


We have checked with the Department of Conservation, who have assured us that the restriction of the above items are whilst used for the purpose of hunting at night.

If you are using a thermal imager to stealthily reach your hunting position before first light, or for locating a downed animal after dusk (shot no later than 1/2hr after sunset), make sure that you remove the magazine from your rifle, and empty the chamber. These are common safety practices, and should be observed anyway.

Read the following letter for an official clarification.

4 November 2015

Anthony,

Thank you for your e mail regarding the Department's hunting permit condition as it applies to hunting at night.
Apologies for delay in replying I have been out of the office for a few days.

Comments as follows:
· Hunting permits have conditions that govern the activity of hunting and are not intended to restrict or govern other activities.
· The above is reinforced by the following statement on the hunting permit "There are permit conditions that you must adhere to when hunting".
· Therefore Condition 4 (referred to in your e mail) applies restrictions that apply when undertaking the activity of hunting.
· Condition 4 sets out to prevent shooting at night as it is considered an unsafe activity. (Limited visibility both peripheral and in the backdrop.)

When considering if an offence has been committed, as it relates to hunting, the following applies.
· Opportunity: There are animals present in the area and hence a reason for hunting exists.
· Means: A person is in possession of a weapon capable of killing an animal.
· Intent: A person is in an area is in possession of a weapon, is actively "stalking" and the weapon is in a condition such that it can be discharged if an animal is encountered. (Bolt in the breech, magazine loaded).

Hence if as you mention you have your rifle slung over your shoulder with an empty chamber and magazine this would be sufficient to show lack of intent (to be actively hunting) and would not be an issue.

Hope the above clarifies the situation.

All the best,

Regards Ian.

Ian Cooksley
National Hunting Advisor
Department of Conservation - Te Papa Atawhai
DDI: +06 350 9709


Te Papaioea / Palmerston North Office
Private Bag 11010, Manawatu Mail Centre, Palmerston North 4442
28 North Street, Palmerston North, 4410
T: 06 350 9700

I use all the time
But 95% of time just to locate predawn to then enjoy watching with bino
Did so this morning and hope to trial the Axion Key tonight from my base camp
If the unforcasted bloody rain stops
Exc for locating hunters who not meant to be there too
But the way Deer numbers are increasing in some areas - back to choppers 1080
Whats better??

Originally Posted by Hiawatha

OK so I know I am probably opening myself up to plenty of angry responses here. I also know that some of those responses will be along the lines of 'we all have the right to decide how we hunt' etc etc etc. Yawn. I am also ready for the 'back when scopes came out everyone probably said the same thing too' conversation. So lets just for the moment take those ones out of the equation and have a rational chat. To be frank having thermal gear in the hands of all and sundry concerns me. I know that there are a million deer out there in private open country so my question is why do we need thermal gear? I also know the same conversation could be had with spotlighting, but thermal gear is a whole jump up. As a pest control tool it is unparalleled and I have no issue with it's use there. Aside from the wide use by poachers I think there is another subtle risk from it. I think it is just another big nail in the coffin of the very reason why we all hunt. And I say hunt, not shoot folks. I worry that it is creating a culture where people just write a cheque and go shoot deer and more deer more easily. There is very little sport in thermal use that is for sure. I think we are in serious danger of totally and absolutely treating our deer like targets, more than the amazing animals that they are. There has already been an element of that creeping in with some (not all by a long stretch) long range shooting as well. C'mon lets be honest here. I know there are personal variations, but like no other tech ever invented I think thermal gear is potentially an issue. Not only that but when do the deer get a break? At what point do people actually want to do some mahi and work HARDER to be successful, not cut corners? The other thing with thermal is that is if we knew how much it is getting used at night in public land I think we would all get a big fright. No doubt everyone has heard the accounts of open country being hammered by thermal hunters. Like Tussock hut for example. And is it fair to use it in the day time instead of actually having to spot the animal yourself instead of scanning first for a heat signature. At some point I think technology may take us over a line where the very reason we hunt has been watered down to the point it stops being that one basic thing we can count on to take us out of a mad world for a while. and I worry that we are getting awfully close to it. What do people think? Should we be the bigger people and make a call to ditch it and lobby to take it out of the shops? I am not lying awake at night worrying about this but some times it doesn't hurt to ask questions instead of blindly plunging on. We certainly don't need it for recreational hunting and unlike pretty much all other tech it seems to cross a big fat line in ethics. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Here goes!! Thermal gear does not sit well with me, but I haven't decided why. It is just a gut reaction, and I usually trust my gut. I don't think we need to lobby to take it out of shops, same as bow hunters don't lobby to have rifles taken out of shops. It is up to each of us to determine how we hunt and the reasons we hunt.

Progress is what it is....remember those pesky helicopters.

I know some Bowhunters who actively use thermal gear to locate the animals they are going to stalk after. Does it makes them more efficient? Yes, they see way more game and time spent in the bush is more efficiently spent. But they still have to stalk their prey down to under the 30 ish meters with out being detected by smell, noise or sight . The stalking and the killing is still as hard and challenging as before.
I think most hunters hunt to fill up the freezer and give a bit of meat to their close friends. If you were to shoot one animal per month and bring back most of the meat, you would probably have more than enough to eat and might actually be fed up of eating venison every day.
For them using a thermal might help bring the bacon faster at home but once their freezer is full then what? They are not going to go and kill more to let the meat get waisted. So the quantity of animals harvested will probably stay the same.
There might be some guys out there who enjoy just killing stuff And bragging on how many they shot in one week or one year. They might be using thermals to do that.They are not the kind of people who impresse me much and for some of the few I have met over the years, some have gotten sick of shooting that much and are turning to a different style of hunting, photography or other activities.
And what to say of hunters who use indicating dogs? Are you going to blame them for having the potential of shooting 2 or three times what the average hunter get? Hell no, they put a huge amount of time and effort to train a dog, pay the food and vet bills and other expenses, and they get rewarded for it. And again, once they fill the freezer, then what?

At the end of day, it is up to each individual to set up the rules of their on game when deciding to pursue an animal. Can they look themselves in the mirror after what they did is the question.

This cracks me up. Shitloads of deer die from 1080, yet we are questioning the ethics of using thermal devices.

This is all interesting and am enjoying peoples thoughts. Nothing wrong with some robust conversation. I fully expected to piss some people off but I am not offended by their replies as they should not be by my asking the question. For the record, no I am not a troll. We all have to start on the forum at some point mate. Now is my time. Yes I have experienced its use and no I don't think you can compare writing a cheque to the hours spent training a dog and actually having to hunt the dog to get it workable. I agree that everyone needs to make their own decision and think that everyone's version of what defines hunting varies greatly. This one topic more than many I have seen recently seems to have a bunch of differing views (outside of 1080) so thought a topic on it would be interesting. I would also add that this is not about worrying what kills more deer for me, but about where we draw our own 'line' in how we hunt. Keep em coming. Cheers

Just be thankful that thermal wasnt involved in chch in march or we wouldnt be having this discussion....

The older I have got the more important thermals have become for me. I really feel the cold nowadays so wouldn't be without them. I still prefer Merino.

Originally Posted by Hiawatha

This is all interesting and am enjoying peoples thoughts. Nothing wrong with some robust conversation. I fully expected to piss some people off but I am not offended by their replies as they should not be by my asking the question. For the record, no I am not a troll. We all have to start on the forum at some point mate. Now is my time. Yes I have experienced its use and no I don't think you can compare writing a cheque to the hours spent training a dog and actually having to hunt the dog to get it workable. I agree that everyone needs to make their own decision and think that everyone's version of what defines hunting varies greatly. This one topic more than many I have seen recently seems to have a bunch of differing views (outside of 1080) so thought a topic on it would be interesting. I would also add that this is not about worrying what kills more deer for me, but about where we draw our own 'line' in how we hunt. Keep em coming. Cheers

Sorry mate. It wasnt meant to be a dig at you or your topic. Just something I thought of. Your choice of topic is good and should be continued. I was just putting a different spin on thought. Proberly should have worded it better. Not good with that sort of thing. Im suprised im still married lol.

That's if your post was directed at my last comment.

If you want to fill your freezer without poaching or having a bomb up that leaves a lot of rotting meat, then I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

It's where you use thermals to be a complete and utter dick that becomes a problem. That applies to spotlighting and firearms in general.

Originally Posted by Allizdog

Sorry mate. It wasnt a dig at you or your topic. Just something I thought of. Your choice of topic is good and should be continued. I was just putting a different spin on thought. Proberly should have worded it better. Not good with that sort of thing.

That's if your post was directed at my last comment.

All good mate.

Originally Posted by Tahr

The older I have got the more important thermals have become for me. I really feel the cold nowadays so wouldn't be without them. I still prefer Merino.

Absolute gold right there as always Tahr. Gold!

Originally Posted by Hiawatha

OK so I know I am probably opening myself up to plenty of angry responses here. I also know that some of those responses will be along the lines of 'we all have the right to decide how we hunt' etc etc etc. Yawn. I am also ready for the 'back when scopes came out everyone probably said the same thing too' conversation. So lets just for the moment take those ones out of the equation and have a rational chat. To be frank having thermal gear in the hands of all and sundry concerns me. I know that there are a million deer out there in private open country so my question is why do we need thermal gear? I also know the same conversation could be had with spotlighting, but thermal gear is a whole jump up. As a pest control tool it is unparalleled and I have no issue with it's use there. Aside from the wide use by poachers I think there is another subtle risk from it. I think it is just another big nail in the coffin of the very reason why we all hunt. And I say hunt, not shoot folks. I worry that it is creating a culture where people just write a cheque and go shoot deer and more deer more easily. There is very little sport in thermal use that is for sure. I think we are in serious danger of totally and absolutely treating our deer like targets, more than the amazing animals that they are. There has already been an element of that creeping in with some (not all by a long stretch) long range shooting as well. C'mon lets be honest here. I know there are personal variations, but like no other tech ever invented I think thermal gear is potentially an issue. Not only that but when do the deer get a break? At what point do people actually want to do some mahi and work HARDER to be successful, not cut corners? The other thing with thermal is that is if we knew how much it is getting used at night in public land I think we would all get a big fright. No doubt everyone has heard the accounts of open country being hammered by thermal hunters. Like Tussock hut for example. And is it fair to use it in the day time instead of actually having to spot the animal yourself instead of scanning first for a heat signature. At some point I think technology may take us over a line where the very reason we hunt has been watered down to the point it stops being that one basic thing we can count on to take us out of a mad world for a while. and I worry that we are getting awfully close to it. What do people think? Should we be the bigger people and make a call to ditch it and lobby to take it out of the shops? I am not lying awake at night worrying about this but some times it doesn't hurt to ask questions instead of blindly plunging on. We certainly don't need it for recreational hunting and unlike pretty much all other tech it seems to cross a big fat line in ethics. I would appreciate your thoughts.

What animals do you hunt that aren't a pest?




That is the elephant in the room. Once that fundamental issue is resolved, we can start having sensible discussions about how we hunt game animals.

Originally Posted by MB

What animals do you hunt that aren't a pest?




That is the elephant in the room. Once that fundamental issue is resolved, we can start having sensible discussions about how we hunt game animals.

that depends on who you talk to. I see ungulates as a resource to be managed to have healthy bush. open slather and pest language will just result in F all to hunt.

But I think NZ hunting culture and just our culture in general isn't mature enough for seasons and any rules of any sort.

that stuff would have had to happen generations ago to work.