Thread: Time to re-introduce a paying for deer/goat tail scheme?

Doc will never pay $500 for a tail, they try and get their work done for the cheapest they can. Look the their goat cull, the guy who had the most tails is a semi pro hunter and he only had 400ish

Originally Posted by LA3LOW

Pretty awesome that your sister has Kaka visiting her farm, shame that they beat her to the fruit but that's life, eh.

Those flappy birds sure do fly (and far) but when elevated lead is also being found in fledglings and juveniles (less than 1 year old) who are unlikely to have ventured far from the nest, it suggests looking for sources closer to home.

Lead isotope testing was undertaken using a variety of OTC ammo. Lead isotope signatures were found to differ between ammo and building flashing due to the source or origin USA, Australia, China etc.

There is correlation between the lead isotopes found in ammo and those found in Kea blood samples.

Personally, I have found the Naturalis Belmont ammo to be just as effective in 7-08. Would be good if they could also get a 140gr projectile so my POA stays the same as when using cheaper lead rounds in areas where scavenging birds aren't present.

Can you provide links to scientific ( peer reviewed ) literature regarding lead isotope testing in NZ kea? Otherwise I call bullshit on your statements. How many bullets do you think are dispersed over Kea habitat ffs.

News ( ?) item in TV1 2-3 nights ago asking tourists at Arthur’s Pass not to feed the beaked vandals.

Also mentioned they’ve been hooking into the lead flashings on buildings and huts throughout the high country……surely a more viable scource of lead as found in blood samples than a few bullets.

B

Originally Posted by woods223

Can you provide links to scientific ( peer reviewed ) literature regarding lead isotope testing in NZ kea? Otherwise I call bullshit on your statements. How many bullets do you think are dispersed over Kea habitat ffs.

Plenty of access to lead from scavenged carcasses.

Originally Posted by Fat ninja

Doc will never pay $500 for a tail, they try and get their work done for the cheapest they can. Look the their goat cull, the guy who had the most tails is a semi pro hunter and he only had 400ish

Provenace of tails would be the sticking point if I was the decision maker. E.g. I recently shot 5 goats on private land far from any public bush. Would those tails have the same worth/public good? Of course not - the good accrues to the farmer, so why should the taxpayer pay?

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

no..switched to comply with law years ago,other than the .410 up until current season but that wasnt many rounds at all. one car battery worth of lead would be my entire shootings worth for a few years with shotgun.
I believe we as a species have a hell of a lot bigger issues going on than the supposed lead one.
the flashings have been changed in most places....the petrol has been changed..my shotgun cartridges have been changed...paints have been changed...so all the major players have been tweaked... to suggest the few tiny quantities we chuck at high speed into and through animals is the big issue killing off kea is a smokescreen ,pure and simple. might I suggest you read Bill Axbeys book "the bird hunters" it has interesting spin on things not often heard.

Yeah, the point of this comment re lead ammo was not about our species but the impact we have on others.

The major killer is cats and stoats but there is still an alarming amount falling sick and or dieing from lead poisoning.

Thanks, I'll check that book out.

Originally Posted by shift14

News ( ?) item in TV1 2-3 nights ago asking tourists at Arthur’s Pass not to feed the beaked vandals.

Also mentioned they’ve been hooking into the lead flashings on buildings and huts throughout the high country……surely a more viable scource of lead as found in blood samples than a few bullets.

B

Arthurs Pass is a tricky one as here are also a few individuals (local residents) who continue to feed the kea, despite numerous pleas to stop, which promotes scavenging behaviour. Private houses with lead flashings, a major road (lead wheel weights, etc), and old infrastructure also are lead sources.

There are other areas where the kea studies are been undertaken that don't have any of above but still have high levels of lead.

Historically (in the last 20 years) a large source of environmental lead to kea has been the lead ammunition used in tahr control. Across the kea range, this would account for a significant majority portion of the ammunition lead source.

DOC tahr control is now done with non-lead ammunition.


The issue with current levels of lead availability to kea from ammunition is poorly understood and there are many challenges.

https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rur...r-control-work

Originally Posted by woods223

Can you provide links to scientific ( peer reviewed ) literature regarding lead isotope testing in NZ kea? Otherwise I call bullshit on your statements. How many bullets do you think are dispersed over Kea habitat ffs.

Sure. Start with this one and then follow the referenced published literature from there. Page 17 - 3.2.4 Implications of wild animal control and hunting using lead ammunition.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets...c339entire.pdf

An NZ specific study has been undertaken and preliminary results are in line with published global studies. I can share that paper with you once it is published.

I'm not that keen to debate the specifics of these studies; that's already been done by the academics and has / is being published in credible journals. More interested to know what you will do with this information and if it will change your behavior?

FWIW I'd estimate 1000s of leaded ammo per year across kea habitat. When was the last time you retrieved the projectile and all fragments from a carcass? Fair to assume most would cut around the damaged and tainted meat and leave it at the kill site, or not recover anything at all.

It's worth pointing out that a kea weighs around 600 gram, so a 9 gram projectile is around 1.5% of the bird's mass. That would be similar to you eating say 1.5kg of lead (assuming you weigh 100kg).

The kea population is estimated to be 3000-5000 birds remaining.

Originally Posted by LA3LOW

I'm not that keen to debate the specifics of these studies...

Please don't do any science.

The shoulders of recreational shot Tahr are seldom collected by hunters. Plenty of lead in them. No scientific evidence required.

Originally Posted by caberslash

Please don't do any science.

Having an opinion is not doing science.

I am currently employed as a scientist but it's not in this specific field hence reluctance to enter debate on the subject.

Originally Posted by LA3LOW

Having an opinion is not doing science.

I am currently employed as a scientist but it's not in this specific field hence reluctance to enter debate on the subject.

it shows by your style of preaching.Also FWIW DOC have a very chequered history with the keas at Arthurs pass ,and the feeding problem has been going on long before you or i were even a concept in daddies head let alone now .

Originally Posted by Tahr

The shoulders of recreational shot Tahr are seldom collected by hunters. Plenty of lead in them. No scientific evidence required.

Thanks, that is how to put it bluntly. I'm not sure why I bothered responding to the 'where's the science' comment.

It seems to be a recurring theme that people who request published literature studies on a topic still won't agree as it doesn't support their views and opinions on a topic. Is it easier to be ignorant than to admit being wrong?

Originally Posted by kotuku

it shows by your style of preaching.Also FWIW DOC have a very chequered history with the keas at Arthurs pass ,and the feeding problem has been going on long before you or i were even a concept in daddies head let alone now .

I appreciate your contribution and kind words.