Thread: Unformed legal road/ Paper Road access

I have a farm with paper road in mind.... It's a bulldozed track maintained by the farmer, through the middle of his land. I guess if it was formed one day it would be a proper road all fenced off no gates etc. But it's not.... So if you were the farmer.... You wouldn't mind strange people passing through your padocks/gates and stock any time they wish and maybe carrying a firearm?
It could also be unsafe, what if the farmer is shooting and doesn't know someone is there, among other hazzards, the way the world is if something happened it would be the farmers fault for sure!
You did the right thing by asking, it's only polite. But he's changed his mind, leave it at that.

Originally Posted by bully

I have a farm with paper road in mind.... It's a bulldozed track maintained by the farmer, through the middle of his land.

But the road isn't his land, thats the point. He just owns land either side of the road.

Originally Posted by bully

So if you were the farmer.... You wouldn't mind strange people passing through your padocks/gates and stock any time they wish and maybe carrying a firearm?

They could always fence off the road and keep their stock on their own land if they're that worried about sharing public land with other users?

Originally Posted by bully

It could also be unsafe, what if the farmer is shooting and doesn't know someone is there, among other hazzards, the way the world is if something happened it would be the farmers fault for sure!

Of course it would be the farmers fault if they shot someone, thats pretty obvious. Target identification and safe shooting directions etc should apply regardless, but especially near roads or other public spaces.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

But the road isn't his land, thats the point. He just owns land either side of the road.



They could always fence off the road and keep their stock on their own land if they're that worried about sharing public land with other users?



Of course it would be the farmers fault if they shot someone, thats pretty obvious. Target identification and safe shooting directions etc should apply regardless, but especially near roads or other public spaces.

I never said shoot someone, you just have to scare someone to be in trouble. There's other typical farm hazards too.
I guess it depends a bit on the track and farm your talking about, as each situation is different. (I'm thinking track right through the middle, others might be along the edge)
I'm not one to be walking through someone else's property weather there's a paper road or not, I would ask. Good luck with the fuck you it's a public road I'm going anyway approach.

Originally Posted by bully

I never said shoot someone, you just have to scare someone to be in trouble. There's other typical farm hazards too.
I guess it depends a bit on the track and farm your talking about, as each situation is different. (I'm thinking track right through the middle, others might be along the edge)
I'm not one to be walking through someone else's property weather there's a paper road or not, I would ask. Good luck with the fuck you it's a public road I'm going anyway approach.

I didn't say anything about not talking to them first, its the polite thing to do and plenty of farmers are good sorts and offer the use of their nice convenient track instead of a paper road with fences across it etc. If they ask me not to use it temporarily for a good reason thats fine, I'm a reasonable person too.

But the simple fact is they don't have any right to stop people using it - if you're walking along the road then you aren't walking through their property, legally it would be like trying to stop you going past their property on a formed road. If they put a sign up warning of any unexpected hazards I imagine that would cover most of their H+S responsibilities well enough.

Probably worth adding too though, if access along the legal road isn't practical (cut off by a cliff or river etc) you don't have any rights to go through the neighbouring land to get around the obstacle. Legal access isn't a guarantee of practical access.

If the road has been closed (which usually has to go through public notification etc, its not as easy as it used to be) it won't show up in the LINZ database as a legal road anymore (which is where WAMS get their data from).

So if WAMS shows it as a legal road then its safe to assume it hasn't been closed, but the boundaries aren't always accurately shown especially in more remote areas.

Remember the saying “You’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar”.

I think the critical issue here is the required permission to access across his property, to reach the paper road.

A leading Question I’d be asking (face to face) is “what can I do to resolve the concerns you’ve raised???” Its about asking direct questions and not allowing them to retreat into vague changed-policy type statements

Good luck!

Not exactly. The paper road is from the tar sealed road right through his land to the doc reserve, so at no point am I actually crossing his land. Although like others have pointed out, even though there is a metal track that joins the reserve, I can't prove that it is acurite to where the road is and I am actually walking on the public land or crossing his land.

My response always ask first. I come from a farming back ground and for the most part farmers are pretty reasonable people. There are are and will always be arseholes like any industry and from time to time you come across them. Some farmers think they own the paper roads and the doc land behind there own as well. Just like other business and councils etc they hide behind the health and safety act to prevent people getting access(sometimes because they don't understand it) Often they've used the land for generations with out anyone trying to use it until now when people are more mobile than they used to be and have better access to gps, maps and records than before. What gets me is using the health and safety act wrongly. If their operation is /has created a hazard then it's up to them to remedy taking ALL practicable steps by law. Not just identifying it or stopping access. It's not there land , they don't pay rates on it. They by law have to make it as safe as they can for the public. First ask, try to help the farmer by pointing out sick stock, fence damage etc when you see it. If that doesn't work and you really need that access and you've confirmed it's public land then inform said farmer of his obligations under the health and safety act and that you may be forced to report him to work safe and the council as he's putting you and others at risk on public land which is against the law. The health and safety act is a bitch I well know but it does work both ways

That is true about a cut off preventing you from using the legal paper road. The grey area there is( according to my surveyor mate)is almost all water ways including creeks, rivers etc are considered roads or at least have access each side and then you have the queens chain thrown in for good measure. This information in map form isn't so easy to get a hold of but does exist and is very surprising on how much public access there actually is. Way more than people think

Originally Posted by SiB

I think the critical issue here is the required permission to access across his property, to reach the paper road.

A leading Question I’d be asking (face to face) is “what can I do to resolve the concerns you’ve raised???” Its about asking direct questions and not allowing them to retreat into vague changed-policy type statements

Good luck!

Not exactly. The paper road is from the tar sealed road right through his land to the doc reserve, so at no point am I actually crossing his land. Although like others have pointed out, even though there is a metal track that joins the reserve, I can't prove that it is acurite to where the road is and I am actually walking on the public land or crossing his land.

Originally Posted by BRADS

Ok we have 2 paper roads on our farm so here is my take on it.
Yes the farmer can the close paper road if he believes it unsafe, eg a old bridge,
He still must provide walking access, and most happily will if you respect there operation.
In a lot of cases the actual formed track is not on the paper road, and yes in some cases the farmer may of actually purchased the road.
I have never seen the council maintain the paper road in my or my dad's time.


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The road has been maintained as it is metaled. I don't believe it's the land owners doing as it continues onto the doc land and I don't think anyone would be willing to pay for and complete work on land that isn't theirs (especially considering it's about 2km from the road to the reserve plus however long into the reserve is metaled). But yeah, like you have mentioned. I can't be certain that the physical road is along the correct pathing

The councils maintain roads that aren't quite where they're sposed to be all over the country and some are even sealed. Old surveys weren't always accurate and roads moved a bit with use by locals and it was assumed that was where they were sposed to be. You need a survey map showing the correct location to know for sure.

Originally Posted by JellyBean

The road has been maintained as it is metaled. I don't believe it's the land owners doing as it continues onto the doc land and I don't think anyone would be willing to pay for and complete work on land that isn't theirs (especially considering it's about 2km from the road to the reserve plus however long into the reserve is metaled). But yeah, like you have mentioned. I can't be certain that the physical road is along the correct pathing

If its formed and maintained by the council then its not just a paper road so bit of a different situation - in that case its not really your problem to make sure you're within the legal road boundaries, it gets a sort of defacto legal status from public acceptance and if someone wants to dispute the position of the formed road they can take it up with the council who maintains it rather than citizens using it.

If that is the case then the farmer is way out of line trying to stop people using a council maintained road because he wants to keep it to himself.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

If its formed and maintained by the council then its not just a paper road so bit of a different situation - in that case its not really your problem to make sure you're within the legal road boundaries, it gets a sort of defacto legal status from public acceptance and if someone wants to dispute the position of the formed road they can take it up with the council who maintains it rather than citizens using it.

If that is the case then the farmer is way out of line trying to stop people using a council maintained road because he wants to keep it to himself.

Have you tried a Google Earth overlay of the topo with boundary info? Should be able to see if the metal road is in fact within the confines of the paper road..
Like others have said have another yarn to him... Try figure out his actual motives (surely it's not just H+S) and how you can help comply. If he is just gonna be a tool for no apparent reason (yes even the odd farmer can be) then I'd clarify your legal stand point and just use the road.. Obviously only once you've exhausted your communication skills with said farmer.

We are all human. If he doesn't hunt himself a few back steaks normally go down well too.


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