Thread: Unformed legal road/ Paper Road access

Iv raised these questions with doc before down here , doc administer ruffly 18,ish hunting areas here & less than half have proper established access for people to use , doc,s stance is so long as you have a permit & you are not trespassing what ever happens in-between is on us they are not interested in negotiating with landowners , some classic examples down here doc land completely surrounded by private land , its a pain in the ass at times getting permission , what I get peeved about is the fact there are legal access points perfectly legit unformed roads but doc arnt interested in teeing it up , farmers can not close formed or unformed roads ,iv seen some funny examples like planting pines directly ontop of roads look quite funny zigzagging all across paddocks , some landowners dig up formed tracks 1 place I no off the land owner put 6 trenches 2m deep into the track , easements can be closed that is different , landowners can temporally close them some like to try & temporally close them all the time .

Wams have got topo overlays,get to them from the four squares on the top right.Four modes to choose from.Edit: Clicking print will give you a pdf of map then save to comp.

You can also contact the Walking Access Commission via their WAMS website if there are disputes and they often provide info on who to contact, or sometimes step in to mediate.

Have you got a Garmin GPS by chance?

Originally Posted by Boaraxa

Iv raised these questions with doc before down here , doc administer ruffly 18,ish hunting areas here & less than half have proper established access for people to use , doc,s stance is so long as you have a permit & you are not trespassing what ever happens in-between is on us they are not interested in negotiating with landowners , some classic examples down here doc land completely surrounded by private land , its a pain in the ass at times getting permission , what I get peeved about is the fact there are legal access points perfectly legit unformed roads but doc arnt interested in teeing it up , farmers can not close formed or unformed roads ,iv seen some funny examples like planting pines directly ontop of roads look quite funny zigzagging all across paddocks , some landowners dig up formed tracks 1 place I no off the land owner put 6 trenches 2m deep into the track , easements can be closed that is different , landowners can temporally close them some like to try & temporally close them all the time .

That's just not on.

Originally Posted by stretch

You can also contact the Walking Access Commission via their WAMS website if there are disputes and they often provide info on who to contact, or sometimes step in to mediate.

Have you got a Garmin GPS by chance?

Can you set up the Garmin to use the wams over lay?

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Originally Posted by Russian 22.

Can you set up the Garmin to use the wams over lay?

Not yet

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Originally Posted by stretch

Not yet

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But it may be possible?

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Originally Posted by Russian 22.

But it may be possible?

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Hence the wink

Google Earth photos aren't much good to use with boundary overlays etc because they aren't orthorectified photos, there is often a lot of distortion from the angle of the the satellite etc.

WAMS website is good, you can see public access areas and boundaries overlaid with aerial photos or topo but you do still have issues with the accuracy of boundary lines in the database, most places are fairly accurate (especially around towns or where more recent surveys have been done) but you can get errors up to 20m+ at times.

The only way to really be sure where a boundary is on the ground is get a surveyor to mark it... obviously only going to happen if someone cares enough to pay for it.

Determining exact boundary locations can be a pain. After the Canterbury earthquakes there were loads of examples where there was sufficient ground movement to put structures on someone elses property. Boundary pegs were not accurate guides for property boundaries in some areas where there was significant lateral movement. I cant remember the details, but I think the result of Linz reviews was that boundary pegs would stay where they lay rather that being resurveyed.

And thats exactly what happened to get access over Poronui to the forest park.

Originally Posted by Chop3r

And thats exactly what happened to get access over Poronui to the forest park.

I agree with almost all of this......and with respect would draw the following distinctions....

1. Your description of the health and safety landscape is as I understand it, and is an accurate synopsis.

2. There is public land (e.g. paper roads) and private land. They are different. If the formed alignment of a road is off the legal alignment (the paper road) then its private land, and that’s that.

3. If the easements you refer to allow unrestricted public access, and if those using them comply with the terms of them then they don’t need a permit from you to use them. If the route they use deviate off the easement, then point 2. above applies.

4. You don’t need to step off the paper road and onto private land to be issued with a Trespass Notice. AFAIK you can be issued with one simply if the occupier has reasonable cause to expect that you are likely to trespass. So o doubt an occupier could argue that just being there provides reasonable cause….?

Originally Posted by Maxx

2. There is public land (e.g. paper roads) and private land. They are different. If the formed alignment of a road is off the legal alignment (the paper road) then its private land, and that’s that.

Not exactly - IIRC a formed road maintained by a council gets a sort of defacto legal road status from public use even if its not in a legal road corridor, and councils fight it pretty hard if people try to block off a publicly used road even if its out of position. Basically they can force the landowner to leave the formed road free and clear until they go through a process to legalise it formally.

Originally Posted by Maxx

4. You don’t need to step off the paper road and onto private land to be issued with a Trespass Notice. AFAIK you can be issued with one simply if the occupier has reasonable cause to expect that you are likely to trespass. So o doubt an occupier could argue that just being there provides reasonable cause….?

But you won't be breaching the trespass order unless you leave the legal road will you? Don't think they can trespass you from public land.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Not exactly - IIRC a formed road maintained by a council gets a sort of defacto legal road status from public use even if its not in a legal road corridor, and councils fight it pretty hard if people try to block off a publicly used road even if its out of position. Basically they can force the landowner to leave the formed road free and clear until they go through a process to legalise it formally.

Nothing to stop farmer putting a plough through it if its not where it's supposed to be though...

NZ Open GPS Project

While realistically a farm owner or manager can refuse access for whatever reason they choose, actually pulling the "because of Health and Safety" card is not a valid excuse to refuse access for recreational activities. There is no obligation for the land owner or manager to warn recreational users of everyday hazards one would likely come across on a visit to a working farm.

There is an obligation to inform of any out of the norm hazards, and what they might be...such as tree felling operations/logging, significant stock movements, pest control and such. Normal hazards found on a farm and natural hazards...while I'd recommend they give you a rough outline, they don't actually need to worry about warning you about them.

Warning doesn't need to be in writing, verbal is fine. And the owner/manager does not need to tell every single member of a group about specific hazards, one person such as the leader is enough, then its up to them to pass that on. To refuse access to a property based on "H&S obligations" and their so called impeding nature on the operation of a farm is basically a cop out. There are no extra obligations with the new Act over the old one, and if a person injures themselves while on the property while there on recreation the owner/manager will not be held responsible.

I control access to several thousand hectares, with public access easements running through the middle of them. I request that anyone wishing to go off those easements contact me for an access permit. It is supplied with an access procedure, which is basically a two page information sheet with hazards current/non current, specific and/or out of the ordinary. While not actually required, it is very simple to do and not a burden at all.

So refusing you access because of health and safety reasons is bollocks.

And in this case where there is a paper road, he doesn't own that land, it is public land and the public have every right to use it. Unless he has purchased that land off the local council he cannot legally refuse access to it. He can't put a locked gate on it, he can't put stock on it, sheds or buildings on it, trees on it, which would restrict access either...without special permission from council.

BUT, a paper road drawn on a map and where it actually legally is can be a significant trip up point, as often tracks or roads formed on a farm "on a paper road" actually aren't in the proper place. So that's where you have to be careful. Potentially stepping off the legal paper road and onto private land could land you a trespass notice. Walking on a paper road, to access public land, with an unloaded firearm is not an illegal activity. Essentially it is no different to me walking down a county road with a rifle, perfectly legal.

In the cases of land I manage, the public easements aren't actually on the legal access ways...when DoC workers came and put the markers on the tracks, they followed existing tracks instead of the legal access up the rivers. In some places the legal access points are hundreds of metres from the actual ones people use. Now I could be a prick about it and lock those deviations up and make people walk. But it helps nothing and nobody, and really, it doesn't really cause any harm (apart from recreational users wrecking our tracks and roads, and DoC refusing to help with costs when we need to fix them up so it just costs us a few grand every couple years...)

My advice would be to talk to the guy face to face and come to some sort of agreement. Make it clear why you want to use the paper road. Offer to give him hand on the farm if need be, anything to sweeten the deal for him. You don't really want to continue accessing land through there if someone is potentially going to be hostile towards you. Not worth the hassle in my opinion.