Thread: Warning Distressing and Disturbing Photographs- 1080 Poison

Originally Posted by Maca49

That’s incorrect, convince me this spread of poison is s good thing?

You want examples of "positive" use ?

Just about every fenced sanctuary project in NZ, and most of the offshore islands used for saving species that are critically endangered.

Originally Posted by Nick-D

You realise that this is a table that shows there is 1080 in the liver of animals that have been necropsied, and is not a measure of if they were in fact killed by the 1080. You are assuming causation without sufficient evidence.

You do understand the liver is a cleaning device that filters and accumulates toxins and hence is why they use it to detect poisons.

Without a further indication of cause of death this data is entirely useless.

This sort of ideological leap hurts your cause.

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So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka show in ppm from the liver?
Anyone know?

Originally Posted by sneeze

So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka show in ppm from the liver?
Anyone know?

No idea man. That's the point.

There a bit of data around ld50 rates but I can't find anything that relates liver trace levels to toxicity or probable death.

Given the accumulatove filtration nature of the liver I would be inclined to think its not an accurate measure of toxicity at all. But that's purely speculative.

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Originally Posted by ebf

You want examples of "positive" use ?

Just about every fenced sanctuary project in NZ, and most of the offshore islands used for saving species that are critically endangered.

Fenced sanctuarys and most off shore Islands aint whole bloody Mountain ranges and farm land oh and water catchments ,list goes on...nothing positive about that............What is it about DEADLY POISON and the harm it is doing to the environment and humans that you don't understand?

Originally Posted by sneeze

So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka show in ppm from the liver?

Anyone know?

No idea about liver tests sneeze..but have come across shit loads of Weka tipped up after a 1080 drop.
Most still had crumbs and dye in their mouths. Weka in my experience are one of the first ground dwellers to die from a drop.
The biggest upset for me was observing a pure white Weka..(very rare) for several weeks,then bang,,dead from a drop.
DOC were told about it before the drop but were not the slightest bit interested.
I believe it was the 3rd ever sighting,,with proof.

plenty of study info out there if you want to read about LD50s etc . I understand weka, kaka, kea etc were more likely to get poisoned. Kiwi poisoning seems unlikely.

"1080" is just another poison, there are many. My objection is that they do helicopter drops everywhere because it's cheap. If they really must helicopter drop poisons, leave it to only the most remote areas and the sanctuaries etc.. Let trappers and others do the accessible areas.

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

If you have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Then Tahr perhaps you should take your own advice and put in an OIA.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Brodi, not 1080. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I had asked.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Brodi, not 1080. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I had asked.

If you look at the covering letter from Department of Conservation shown with the OIA 'Thar' you will see that the results asked for and given cover both brodifacoum and 1080. The poisons shown here found in the Kiwi are 1080 measured in parts per million and is clearly labelled as such. It is well documented that no Epidrmilogical studies have been done on humans and that we could as suggested be effected by 1080 by parts per trillion and so possibly are the kiwi. Certainly the fertility of the birds will be effected.

I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.

It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.

I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.

Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.

It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.

I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.

Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.

They keep records of every necropsied kiwi. I'm not sure what else they can do to prove it to you.

Again show the evidence that doses in that magnitude in anyway effect health or fertility in kiwi.

All the literature I have seen was using doses orders of magnitude higher than the residue found in the kiwi, and dosing for prolonged periods.

Certainly it is an area that could benifit from greater science, but that doesn't mean you can just make stuff up to suit you bias.

Don't get me wrong, given a better alternative I would prefer we weren't dumping poison into these environments. I just don't see another alternative. Without these periods of reduced predator pressure evidence suggests many of our bird populations would be even worse of.

Enjoy your white baiting, I miss the old wb fritters

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Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.

It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.

I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.

Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.

Go and enjoy some "own" time Graeme!!

Independent? enquiry into the dead cattle, lets hope this is the start of an open book policy by Doc, it could move them a long way down the correct road? But I think changes in the organization will also be required

There are several things missing from that table that would make it more meaningful.
1/ a background zero level taken from animals in an area that has never been treated with the stuff. This is needed to determine what if any naturally occurring level of fluroacetate occurs in the environment.
2/ the size of the sample analysed and the percentage of tests were above that baseline figure
3/levels that have been recorded in dead animals that have been autopsied.

Someone mentioned LD 50 i dont believe the figures quote for rats etc can be applied across other species by extrapolation of body weight populations of animals historically exposed to naturally occuring fluroacetate in their diet have developed tolerance to high doses of the poison.

This appears to be a good piece of scientific work to start with but because of its incomplete nature drawing conclusions from it is open to criticisim.
Another point is that fluroacetate does not bioaccumulate ie is not stored in body tissues like fat as brodi is. It is excreted and metabolised away so for it to be present in tissue there has to have been recent exposure. Brodi on the other hand can remain stored in tissue for years in the case of large ma

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

If you look at the covering letter from Department of Conservation shown with the OIA 'Thar' you will see that the results asked for and given cover both brodifacoum and 1080. The poisons shown here found in the Kiwi are 1080 measured in parts per million and is clearly labelled as such. It is well documented that no Epidrmilogical studies have been done on humans and that we could as suggested be effected by 1080 by parts per trillion and so possibly are the kiwi. Certainly the fertility of the birds will be effected.

Yes, and I noted that after my post. Tried to delete my comment but failed (I'm out of the country at the moment). But in any event, these Kiwi were not killed by 1080.

They probably died from a brain aneurysm after reading this thread.