Thread: World Record Red Deer!!!!......according to an American

Originally Posted by Gibo

Agree guys, I buy free range eggs but they still have a fence between the nest and the supermaket shelf

That and the question of "Organic" is a whole other discussion we can have around a camp fire one night Gibo. "Organic Beef" pfffft, of course it is fucking organic, it lives and breathes. (We need a fuck me dead emoticon).

Originally Posted by Rushy

That and the question of "Organic" is a whole other discussion we can have around a camp fire one night Gibo. "Organic Beef" pfffft, of course it is fucking organic, it lives and breathes. (We need a fuck me dead emoticon).

I use this one or sometimes this one

I have no dog in this fight , but always assumed that " free range " meant "public land" accessible to all ?

Ken

Originally Posted by ebf

Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...

I read it as the free range farm she shot the stag on was 500km away from the fenced farm in the lower south

Red being the 250,000 acre free range hunting blue being the 3000 acre gamepark

this is just a rough idea I have no idea where the property's are

yup toby, got that part, i was commenting on the "hundreds of km to closest game farm" nonsense.. yeah right, no game farms near aorangi, nelson, kaikoura etc, haha.

the guy might have access to 250K acre (if you add all the properties together), but how large was the actual block (or maybe I should say paddock) she shot the deer in ?

The other thing is that the guide also offers estate hunts, so what, he's got this little mecca of free range 100's of miles from his farmed stuff and anyone elses? I'd think it'd be more likely he has the deer farm at (X) and bordering it literally on the fence line is (Y) a property with a less high fence (free range apparently!)

Free range or no though the only reason this would be number one is because its scored using a system that (basiccally) only guides taking Americans use, other than that, the Southern Hemisphere is Douglas Score. You want to get a true measurement of the head score it in Douglas and compare it to its cohort, being the other animals taken in the same country.

I realise SCI is international, but its pretty much America's own international scoring system when they go somewhere else because they can't use B&C and P&Y.

What this hunt has done is essentially the same as me going to the USA, shooting a 2 year old 4pt mule deer, scoring it in Douglas and claiming it as a world record.

I do have to agree with the comments here though, true free range hunting should be deer that can be hunted fair and square by anyone. Hunt on private with no fences but where you have exclusive access - there is still a boundary albeit invisible that segregates you from others and who can hunt where. That's why I never used "free range" in my personal life until very recently (in the past year) because I hunt mostly private property where its just me, my brother and my old man that can hunt there pretty much. Not really free range if its us or no one that can shoot them. I call them simply "wild deer", because thats what they are, but then the lines get muddied again, what if you have a huge high fenced area like some properties in NZ with 100s 1000s acres where the deer live and breed essentially wild and free and are fearful of humans? Isn't that wild?

This politics and contradiction crap is why I hunt only for me, I personally wouldnt hunt in small pens, (though I have no issues with people that like to as long as they arent trying to pass it off as anything else) but for the most part I don't care whether its public or private or whatever as long as I'm enjoying it and having fun and that the animals if they outwit me can get away. But as soon as you start putting a label on something, along the lines of "I've taken a world record" then you need to be able to back it up.

That's part of the reason why I don't score my heads, having blokes whinging and arguing over an 1/8" here and 1/6" there, and debating whether to score a tine because iy is a couple of degrees in the wrong direction and crap like that. The measure of a trophy for me is in the blood, sweat and tears that have been put into getting them, the antlers sure are important and I refuse to shoot a stag I know I'll do nothing with just for the sake of shooting him but they're really secondary to the hunt and effort gone into it.

At the end of the day though as much as I love venison I'm first and foremost a trophy hunter and because of that I love big deer and love seeing big deer other people take. (My favourites are big old heads as opposed to high scoring heads, nothing beats an old battler).
But a deer you shoot is what it is and I see people like Phillip who shot his first Sika hind last year and Scouser with his 8pt stag this year and I loved how excited they were and obviously truthful. But if you have to make one lie or exaggeration about your deer to make it seem better than what it is, whether its adding score, claiming it as "free range hundreds of miles from anywhere" or making an easy hunt into something gruelling then you obviously dont respect the animal for what it is and you didnt deserve to have it die at your hands.
For example, my fallow buck I shot with my bow last year will probably be the best I ever shoot but I didnt need to make up any elaborate lie about the hunt, I rocked up Friday after work, sat on a game trail and within an hour or so he walked up to 35m from me and I shot him, the hunt doesn't rank amongst my most grueling or strategical best but it and the animal are what they are and I'm not ashamed of that.

I realise at times I've had strong opinions here, but that's all they are, my opinions, and just like arseholes, we all have em and they're all different so keep pinging off your own.

I will comment to BarnesLady on one thing though - I love Barnes, particularly the TTSX and will never stop reloading them BUT I contacted you guys with a fairly simple question last year and never heard anything back, bit disappointing on the customer service side of things though aside from that, they're the best hunting bullets in the world in my opinion.

All fair comment BH

Originally Posted by Rushy

All fair comment BH

+1 this is what the forum is all about, free speech and opinions shared, feel free guys n gals.......

Originally Posted by ebf

Welcome to the forum BL.

Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...

"True free range" for most of us on here means public land - NO fences...

Having hunted Australia as well, I'm pretty sure I was hunting NZ. The plane did land in Christchurch and we drove north, but there are no land bridges from NZ to Aussie that I'm aware of? If you call that much acreage of cattle and sheep stations "high fence" then it might be you're a bit vertically challenged? Just because it's on private land, does not mean it is not "free range". By definition, free range animals can be taken on public or private land. The bottom line is that those red deer where I hunted can leave the station any time they want. They are not "fenced in". That is the definition of high fenced hunting - if the animal can leave the property on its own, it is "free range". Any fences on that place for the cattle and sheep can definitely be cleared by a red deer. You may have personal opinions to the contrary, and I will respect that, but for the books and professionally this defines free range vs. high fence.

Now, let's all be friends and play nice. I hope some of you are Barnes fans???

Originally Posted by Bavarian_Hunter

The other thing is that the guide also offers estate hunts, so what, he's got this little mecca of free range 100's of miles from his farmed stuff and anyone elses? I'd think it'd be more likely he has the deer farm at (X) and bordering it literally on the fence line is (Y) a property with a less high fence (free range apparently!)

Free range or no though the only reason this would be number one is because its scored using a system that (basiccally) only guides taking Americans use, other than that, the Southern Hemisphere is Douglas Score. You want to get a true measurement of the head score it in Douglas and compare it to its cohort, being the other animals taken in the same country.

I realise SCI is international, but its pretty much America's own international scoring system when they go somewhere else because they can't use B&C and P&Y.

What this hunt has done is essentially the same as me going to the USA, shooting a 2 year old 4pt mule deer, scoring it in Douglas and claiming it as a world record.

I do have to agree with the comments here though, true free range hunting should be deer that can be hunted fair and square by anyone. Hunt on private with no fences but where you have exclusive access - there is still a boundary albeit invisible that segregates you from others and who can hunt where. That's why I never used "free range" in my personal life until very recently (in the past year) because I hunt mostly private property where its just me, my brother and my old man that can hunt there pretty much. Not really free range if its us or no one that can shoot them. I call them simply "wild deer", because thats what they are, but then the lines get muddied again, what if you have a huge high fenced area like some properties in NZ with 100s 1000s acres where the deer live and breed essentially wild and free and are fearful of humans? Isn't that wild?

This politics and contradiction crap is why I hunt only for me, I personally wouldnt hunt in small pens, (though I have no issues with people that like to as long as they arent trying to pass it off as anything else) but for the most part I don't care whether its public or private or whatever as long as I'm enjoying it and having fun and that the animals if they outwit me can get away. But as soon as you start putting a label on something, along the lines of "I've taken a world record" then you need to be able to back it up.

That's part of the reason why I don't score my heads, having blokes whinging and arguing over an 1/8" here and 1/6" there, and debating whether to score a tine because iy is a couple of degrees in the wrong direction and crap like that. The measure of a trophy for me is in the blood, sweat and tears that have been put into getting them, the antlers sure are important and I refuse to shoot a stag I know I'll do nothing with just for the sake of shooting him but they're really secondary to the hunt and effort gone into it.

At the end of the day though as much as I love venison I'm first and foremost a trophy hunter and because of that I love big deer and love seeing big deer other people take. (My favourites are big old heads as opposed to high scoring heads, nothing beats an old battler).
But a deer you shoot is what it is and I see people like Phillip who shot his first Sika hind last year and Scouser with his 8pt stag this year and I loved how excited they were and obviously truthful. But if you have to make one lie or exaggeration about your deer to make it seem better than what it is, whether its adding score, claiming it as "free range hundreds of miles from anywhere" or making an easy hunt into something gruelling then you obviously dont respect the animal for what it is and you didnt deserve to have it die at your hands.
For example, my fallow buck I shot with my bow last year will probably be the best I ever shoot but I didnt need to make up any elaborate lie about the hunt, I rocked up Friday after work, sat on a game trail and within an hour or so he walked up to 35m from me and I shot him, the hunt doesn't rank amongst my most grueling or strategical best but it and the animal are what they are and I'm not ashamed of that.

I realise at times I've had strong opinions here, but that's all they are, my opinions, and just like arseholes, we all have em and they're all different so keep pinging off your own.

I will comment to BarnesLady on one thing though - I love Barnes, particularly the TTSX and will never stop reloading them BUT I contacted you guys with a fairly simple question last year and never heard anything back, bit disappointing on the customer service side of things though aside from that, they're the best hunting bullets in the world in my opinion.

BH, your opinions are indeed strong, and frankly I very much appreciate your honesty. I completely agree with you that SCI is pretty much America's own scoring system, but again, I have always been forthright and claimed the stag as what it is: the SCI free range world record. And that is the truth. Guys, realize as well that I have hunted for all of these years not only because I love to hunt and enjoy venison, but also for business purposes. I would like to post a story as related to me by my father, Randy Brooks, for a past edition of the online Barnes Club-X Newsletter:

The late, great Col. Charles Askins was an old and very dear friend of mine who taught me an invaluable lesson. Our relationship goes back to the early days when Coni and I were still learning the ropes about how to run a bullet business. Charlie called me up one day to order some of our old Barnes Original 416 caliber FMJ’s. He told me that he had killed 80 buffalo and was on his way to 100. I was flattered when he said Barnes Bullets would be used to accomplish this task, and promptly sent the package to him.

I received another call shortly thereafter from Charlie. He said “Boy, I didn’t order hollow-points, I ordered full metal jackets.” I explained to him that the bullets were made from tubing and swaged closed at both ends, leaving a small pin-hole in the nose to give the appearance of a small hollow-point. I assured him they would work well on dangerous game. This was a bullet Fred Barnes began building in the ‘30s and hunters had been using them in Africa for years with great success. He politely listened to my entire sales pitch, and when I was done, he said “Listen Boy, how many buffalo have you shot?”

His question caught me way off guard because I hadn’t taken any! I was embarrassed, and realized that although I was telling a seasoned veteran how well this bullet would perform, I had absolutely no personal experience to back up my statement. What gave me the right? So, I answered him honestly and said “None.” He replied, in true Charlie Askins fashion, “Well, I don’t want a horn up my ass!” I was speechless because he had me cold. I realized that I was nothing more than a salesman at that point in regards to Barnes Bullets’ performance on dangerous game. When our conversation was finished I hung up the phone, turned to Coni and said something to the effect of “That’s the last time I’ll have a conversation with anybody where my experience is called into question.” Within a few months, I was in Africa and had shot three Cape buffalo and an elephant. From that year forward I spent a minimum of 100 days a year in the field, hunting all types of game.

The reason I shared that story is to illustrate that Barnes builds excellent products because we use our bullets on a large variety of game the world over, and can speak to bullet performance based on experience. We do our best to get the word out about our experience to let hunter's know what they can expect on game they pursue, promote the product and promote the brand. That's the business side. I will also say that growing up, Barnes Bullets was like another child at our dinner table. Our family is passionate about this company and its products, and we would never intentionally do anything to damage the reputation we worked so hard for so many years to build. All that said, we hunt for ourselves as well with no company involvement or promotion. Last year, my absolute favorite hunt was our own Utah mule deer season. In Utah, we must draw mule deer tags. My husband, oldest son and I (luckily) all drew out. The season spans two weekends, so the first weekend I hunted with my son. He took a respectable muley trophy. His wife and my two grandkids were there to celebrate a successful hunt with us. Afterwards, I headed to the high country to meet up with my husband. He took a respectable muley as well. We hunted hard the rest of the week for me. I put a tough stalk on a huge buck and blew him out of his bed within bow range. It was so exciting!!! My husband watched the whole thing from atop a knoll - he said he could barely stand to sit still as he watched me get that close to a buck of a lifetime. Oh well, that's hunting, and we had a blast.

There will always be those with differing opinions from ourselves. As I said, I'm ok with that as long as we do it in a respectful manner and everyone's voice can be heard. I thank you for hearing mine, and wish you all good hunting, no matter your ideas about what hunting is to you - as long as it is ethical and promotes our sport in a positive way. Being one of the faces of Barnes, and for the love and preservation of the sport, I endeavor to do that very thing.

Barnes Lady, it is a sign of maturity that people can hold differing opinions and agree to disagree and then get on with it. In the instance of SCI's definition of free range I happen to disagree but let that not prevent me from welcoming you to our wonderful forum. Your posts thus far have been frank and balanced and I look forward to your future contributions.

I'd use barnes projectiles if they didn't cost so much

I bought a box of Barnes for the 223 soon after I started reloading. They shoot sub MORA (minute of rats arse) and I thought then the best thing ever until I saw they were basically double the price of the next best.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Fucking bullshit Rushy. You haven't seen the stations down here. Or if you have you've got a fucking short memory.
Head out of arse about now would be fitting.

yep totally agree.

There is nothing free range about that animal at all.
It was taken in an area that has never produced a stag close to that quality until deer farming or game parks started showing up.
Shoot one like that out of the Olivine, Cascade or Aspiring areas like a couple have in the last 10 years and that is true non influenced free range hunting. Getting some random bits of Nz bush caught in your barrel channel would be impressive as well.
You paid serious money to have exclusive rights as far as access and rights to shoot it.
Not my idea of free range either.

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